[gothic-l] Eruli in the West

[Bertil Haggman]

Maybe we are referring to different matters.
I was discussing the Eruli. A usual reference
by researchers (not by all) is an expulsion around 250 AD.
It might be interesting to know about the arguments
about an expulsion around 290 AD?

As the Eruli and the Goti appear around the same
time in today's Ukraine it is is not farfetched to assume that thay
migrated together from the area around the Baltic Sea.
The raids by Eruli and Goti 267, 269 and 275 AD
through the eastern Mediterranean could maybe
be a sign that the expulsion from Denmark came
earlier than around 250 AD.

"distinct groups of Eruli at different times"

On the list has been extensive discussions on the
remigration of a part of the Eruli people to Scandinavia
and the visit of an Eruli group to Scandinavia to
find a king for the Central or South European Eruli.
There can be no more firmer connection between the
Eruli and Scandinavia. 

Furthermore Jordanes in _Getica_ (23-24) is presenting
the Eruli among Scandiae nationes. Then there is the
arguments for connection between Eruli names and Scadinavian, 
presented on this list in detail. There is no need to go further
into that matter again. As Taylor argues in Hoops there is of
course (see above) the matter of close connection between
the Eruli and the Goti before the migration to the northern
shores of the Black Sea. The raids also demonstrate an ability
of Eruli and Goti for managing ships (bewiesene Seetuechtigkeit).
There is also the detailed knowledge of Scandinavia of both
Procopius and Jordanes. The growth of the Eruli in the
6th century also is pointing to a continous addition by
migrating Eruli from Scandinavia. Then of course there is
the word erilaR on Scandinavian runestones. And finally the
Eruli n Scandinavia after 512 AD.

Are you then refuting all relation of the Eruli to Scandinavia?
You seem only to acknowledge Eruli north of the Black Sea,
in south-central Europe and in the west? But if the Eruli did
not come from Scandinavia your own assessment of the 
migrational starting point would be interesting. Or do we have
three different areas: the Baltic Sea for the Eruli north
of the Black Sea, another fo rthose in the south and a
third for the western Eruli?

Bertil Haggman



Wessén and the others (among them Beck, I. Skovgard-Pedersen 
and Ulla Lund-Hansen) I cited in these articles put the beginning of 
the Danes squarely around 500. Wessén specially  wrote about the 
passage in Jordanes Get.23 and argued that the clause 
"Herulos...expulerunt, qui" was a later insert. He did not treat 
specially the Eruli. That passage usually is cited by those who 
argue about a Scandinavian origin and the eviction around 290 by 
the Danes. If there were no Danes around then and the passage in 
Jordanes refers to events in the sixth century, this proof goes down 
the drain. Do not misunderstand me, I do not advocate Ellegard's 
theory. But we must understand that there are distinct groups of 
Eruli at different times and that they cannot easily be brought under 
a common origin. There are those at the Maeotis in the third and 
fourth century and we do not know where they came from. There 
are those in Central Europe in the fifht and the sixth century and 
they are probably connected with those at the Maeotis before. And 
there are those  at the mouth of the Rhine and for those we can 
assume that they came from somewhere on the North Sea coast. 
And Mecklenburg is not in Central Europe. The localization of the 
Western Eruli before 286 depends upon the localization of the 
Chaibones mentioned together with them.
  



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