[gothic-l] Eruli in the West

Tue Feb 12 23:02:04 UTC 2002

On 12 Feb 2002, at 18:03, Bertil Haggman wrote:

> Maybe we are referring to different matters.
> I was discussing the Eruli. A usual reference
> by researchers (not by all) is an expulsion around 250 AD.
> It might be interesting to know about the arguments
> about an expulsion around 290 AD?

Dear Bertil,
the Eruli at the Maeotis turned up at 268, those at the Rhine 286.
Every debate about a possible expulsion usually centres around
those two dates. But the expulsion itself is usually based on Jord.
Get.23 and this is a wrong application of this text and its chronology.

>
> As the Eruli and the Goti appear around the same
> time in today's Ukraine it is is not farfetched to assume that thay
> migrated together from the area around the Baltic Sea.

They did not turn up at the same time. The expansion of the Goths
into the Ukraine started around 220/230 and got full momentum
about 250. And in the area where they are supposed to have been
in the third century there are practically no Chernyakhov sites found
up to now, which both speaks against a common expansion with the
Goths.

The raids by
> Eruli and Goti 267, 269 and 275 AD through the eastern Mediterranean
> could maybe be a sign that the expulsion from Denmark came earlier
> than around 250 AD.

See above.
>
> "distinct groups of Eruli at different times"
>
> On the list has been extensive discussions on the
> remigration of a part of the Eruli people to Scandinavia
> and the visit of an Eruli group to Scandinavia to
> find a king for the Central or South European Eruli.
> There can be no more firmer connection between the
> Eruli and Scandinavia.

No source calls the journey of the Eruli to the Gauts a remigration.
That there were connections in the fifth century between
Scandinavia and Bohemia is testified by archeology (see Tejral and
Arrhenius) and the Longobardic kings from the Gausi.
>
> Furthermore Jordanes in _Getica_ (23-24) is presenting
> the Eruli among Scandiae nationes. Then there is the
> arguments for connection between Eruli names and Scadinavian,
> presented on this list in detail. There is no need to go further
> into that matter again. As Taylor argues in Hoops there is of
> course (see above) the matter of close connection between
> the Eruli and the Goti before the migration to the northern
> shores of the Black Sea.

this connection is nowhere testified. they are first mentioned
together in the great expedition of 268.
The raids also demonstrate an ability
> of Eruli and Goti for managing ships (bewiesene Seetuechtigkeit).

Look at the literature on the raids from Rappaport onwards till my
own contribution and Maciej Salamon's article in Eos. Then you will
find that the Goths used firsst local ships and sailors and then the
infrastructure of the Bosporan Kingdom before they ventured forth
on their own. The Eruli both in the West and in the Black Sea seem
to have used ships at once, those in the West seem to have come to
the Rhine in their own ships.
> There is also the detailed knowledge of Scandinavia of both Procopius
> and Jordanes. The growth of the Eruli in the 6th century also is
> pointing to a continous addition by migrating Eruli from Scandinavia.

This is not born out by archeology. Look at the anthropological and
archeological analysis in Tejral's articles. The connections are there
in grave goods in princely graves and it is not clear in what direction
import and export went.
> Then of course there is the word erilaR on Scandinavian runestones.
> And finally the Eruli n Scandinavia after 512 AD.
>
> Are you then refuting all relation of the Eruli to Scandinavia?

The relations are there in the fifth and sixth century and after 512
according to Procopius and Jordanes we have to reckon with Eruli
in Scandinavia. In the third century the Western Eruli started with
the Chaibones from somewhere on the North sea coast. Their
localization before 268 depends upon that of the Chaibones and
those are a bit better testified by similar names in Ptolemaios and
Strabon. From there or the Baltic the Maeotis Eruli could have
started, too, but hat is only a reasonable guess. The sources give us
no information about them before 268,

Kind regards
                        Andreas
ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
Institut fuer oesterreichische Geschichtsforschung
Universitaet Wien
Dr.Karl-Lueger-Ring 1
A 1010 Wien
Oesterreich
tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
fax 0043/1/42-77/92-72
email andreas.schwarcz at univie.ac.at

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