[gothic-l] Whence the Eruli

Sat Feb 16 22:54:51 UTC 2002

--- Bertil Haggman <mvk575b at tninet.se> wrote:
> Understand that it is important for you
> to point out that the Eruli used local
> ships.

*****GK: Since that is what the sources say to ignore
it would be to indulge in fantasy. I will leave that
to the creative author of the "Annales
Bertiliani".*****

 For reason unknown to me some Ukrainians
> are not very happy with a Scandinavian connection
> (in contrast to many Russians).

*****GK: I don't know what you mean. A Scandinavian
connection for the Eruli? Serious scholars, whether
Ukrainian or Russian or whatever, are guided by the
evidence, not by fantasy. As I mentioned, the Eruli
are in a similar position to the Goths and Gepids
here. Current opinion has moved against the radical
migration from Scandinavia theory. Discussion is
continuing.******

> What does not surprise me is that you are alone
> when it comes to the settlement area of the
> Eruli. All leading experts point to the Sea
> of Azov as settlement area.

*****GK: If the Eruli were Germanic (and no one doubts
this) then their culture in the 3rd and 4th centuries
HAD to be either Psheworsk, Wielbark, or Chernyakhiv.
In the Sea of Azov region there is no Psheworsk,
Wielbark or Chernyakhiv settlement (except for a late
Chernyakhiv migration in 425-450, which subsequently
disappears). In the Sea of Azov area there are only
Sarmatian and Alanic sites. To believe that the Eruli
lived there we would have to believe that from the
very beginning they shared a culture identical to that
of the Sarmatians and Alans. This is unacceptable,
because it is incredible. The example of the Goths and
Gepids demonstrates that these groups EVOLVED towards
Chernyakhiv through discernible intermediate phases.
To believe that the Eruli were settled in the Sea of
Azov region we would have to accept that a group
arrived from Scandinavia, and IMMEDIATELY became horse
archer-warriors, IMMEDIATELY discarded their previous
ceramics, jewellery and way of life in order to
IMMEDIATELY and TOTALLY adopt that of the Alans. Or
even more silly: that they lived here in significant
masses for about two centuries and left absolutely no
trace of having been here... One cannot rely
exclusively on Jordanes quoting Ablabius via
Cassiodorus. One needs corroborating archaeological
evidence, It isn't there.******
>
> If there were "masses" of Eruli it is natural
> that they preferred country settlements to the
> city.

*****GK: My dear fellow, the point is not what is or
is not "natural", but where the evidence leads us.
There are neither urban NOR RURAL sites in the Sea of
Azov area which indicates the settlement of Germanic
tribes here.*****

 >
> It is quite possible that there has been a
> "tremendous
> amount" of excavations but these reports do not
> seem to have reached the United States or
> western Europe.

*****GK: Which merely proves that SOME in the United
States and Western Europe have a lot of catching up to
do. These reports are available in books, articles and
archaeological journals written in Russian and
Ukrainian. This has been available for a long time.
There are members of this list who have demonstrated
their capacity to absorb this literature and integrate
it into their SCIENTIFIC perspective. That is sound
procedure with which I fully agree.***
>
> We are not discussing "myth of origin" but
> Prokopios. Based on some flimsy "myth"
> they crossed all of Europe and Denmark to
> settle on the southern Scandinavian peinsula.
> That does not seem likely.

*****GK: I think that for people living in the 6th
century these concepts would not be "flimsy". Where
did Jordanes get his theory of the Scandinavian origin
of the Goths? Eventually from the "carmina" which
previously inspired Ablabius and Cassiodorus. We may
think these perceptions "flimsy" but it is silly to
think that people of that time period did. Reread what
I wrote below: IF...THEN...======IF they shared a
similar myth THEN it would be "natural" for them to
"go home", if their leaders and wise men suggested the
option. Did this "myth" represent real historical
facts? We are no longer certain that it did in the
case of the Goths. And we cannot be certain that it
did in the case of the Eruli.*****
>

>
> Bertil Haggman
>
>
> > When speaking of raids which utilized the
> > fleet of the Bosporan Kingdom, the notion is that
> > Goths, Eruli (and others) marched from their
> > settlements further north to the point of
> embarkation.
> > There were also raids starting from coastal points
> > further west (e.g. Olbia, Tyras) and here the
> > settlements were much closer. Unlike Scythians and
> > Sarmatians before them, it does not appear that
> the
> > Germanic masses here were interested in "urban
> > living".
>
> > A tremendous amount of mostly published
> > excavations have been done here for all historical
> > periods. No significant Gothic or Erulic material
> > (other than occasional discrete object finds)  has
> > been discovered. The sequence of dominant cultures
> > here (Sea of Azov)is: Scythian and Maeotian (the
> > latter now considered Indo-Aryans), Sarmatian and
> > Alanic, Hunno-Bulgar and by then we are in the
> early
> > middle ages.
>
> > If they shared a "myth of origin" similar to
> > the one recorded for the Goths (and for many other
> > Germanic populations if one believes Rydberg) they
> may
> > simply have thought they were "going home".
>
>
>

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