[gothic-l] Whence the Eruli

[Bertil Haggman]

Well, some even try to claim that the crews on
the raid ships were non-Eruli and non-Goti,
but you haven't yet arrived at that point. The
Eruli and the Goti captured the Bosporan ships
and used them in the raids, most likely.

As you prefer to label all Scandinavian inter-
pretations of the Eruli tradition in Scandinavia
as "fantasy" this conclusion is near at hand.
Try H.Andersen, E.Belsheim. E.Elgqvist, O.
von Friesen, T.Gannholm, B. Gudhmundsson,
H.Hildebrand, G.O. Hyltén-Cavallius, L.Lindquist,
N.Lukman, E.Wessén and others, even Ellegaard.
On the Scandinavian commentaries you might
need a translator, though. Or maybe a dictionary?

Knysh against Wolfram. This will be interesting.
But it is always interesting with fresh theories
based only on archaelogy and excluding linguistics,
history, cultural and literary sources. Why are you so
onesided? Personally I prefer the assertion of
taylor concerning the settlement area of the Eruli 
near the Black Sea.

No it is not the United States and European historians
who have "to catch up" but the others who have to
make their "evidence" available in the common languages
of the researching community.

There is no reason to reread you theories. You have
made clear your point and you have given no acceptable 
theory on the reason for the emigration to Thoule
(Scandinavia). But as you seem to except the general
idea that the Eruli indeed migrated to Scandinavia
in the 6th century I see no further reason to discuss
your "inner myth" theory.

Bertil Haggman





> Since that is what the sources say to ignore
> it would be to indulge in fantasy.  

 I don't know what you mean. A Scandinavian
> connection for the Eruli? Serious scholars, whether
> Ukrainian or Russian or whatever, are guided by the
> evidence, not by fantasy. As I mentioned, the Eruli
> are in a similar position to the Goths and Gepids
> here. Current opinion has moved against the radical
> migration from Scandinavia theory. Discussion is
> continuing.

> If the Eruli were Germanic (and no one doubts
> this) then their culture in the 3rd and 4th centuries
> HAD to be either Psheworsk, Wielbark, or Chernyakhiv.
> In the Sea of Azov region there is no Psheworsk,
> Wielbark or Chernyakhiv settlement (except for a late
> Chernyakhiv migration in 425-450, which subsequently
> disappears). In the Sea of Azov area there are only
> Sarmatian and Alanic sites. To believe that the Eruli
> lived there we would have to believe that from the
> very beginning they shared a culture identical to that
> of the Sarmatians and Alans. This is unacceptable,
> because it is incredible. The example of the Goths and
> Gepids demonstrates that these groups EVOLVED towards
> Chernyakhiv through discernible intermediate phases.
> To believe that the Eruli were settled in the Sea of
> Azov region we would have to accept that a group
> arrived from Scandinavia, and IMMEDIATELY became horse
> archer-warriors, IMMEDIATELY discarded their previous
> ceramics, jewellery and way of life in order to
> IMMEDIATELY and TOTALLY adopt that of the Alans. Or
> even more silly: that they lived here in significant
> masses for about two centuries and left absolutely no
> trace of having been here... One cannot rely
> exclusively on Jordanes quoting Ablabius via
> Cassiodorus. One needs corroborating archaeological
> evidence, It isn't there.
> > 
> > If there were "masses" of Eruli it is natural
> > that they preferred country settlements to the
> > city.

> There are neither urban NOR RURAL sites in the Sea of
> Azov area which indicates the settlement of Germanic
> tribes here.

> Which merely proves that SOME in the United
> States and Western Europe have a lot of catching up to
> do. These reports are available in books, articles and
> archaeological journals written in Russian and
> Ukrainian. This has been available for a long time.
> There are members of this list who have demonstrated
> their capacity to absorb this literature and integrate
> it into their SCIENTIFIC perspective. That is sound
> procedure with which I fully agree.

> I think that for people living in the 6th
> century these concepts would not be "flimsy". Where
> did Jordanes get his theory of the Scandinavian origin
> of the Goths? Eventually from the "carmina" which
> previously inspired Ablabius and Cassiodorus. We may
> think these perceptions "flimsy" but it is silly to
> think that people of that time period did. Reread what
> I wrote below: IF...THEN...======IF they shared a
> similar myth THEN it would be "natural" for them to
> "go home", if their leaders and wise men suggested the
> option. Did this "myth" represent real historical
> facts? We are no longer certain that it did in the
> case of the Goths. And we cannot be certain that it
> did in the case of the Eruli.



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