[gothic-l] Re: Whence the Eruli

[troels_brandt]

--- In gothic-l at y..., george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> *****GK: The Psheworsk culture began to form in Western
> Poland and was in place also no later than the 2nd c.
> BC. It is usually associated with the Vandals. If the
> Eruli came from here, then a possible historical link
> to the "Harii" or "Hirri" might be entertained.

George,
I appreciate that you keep this possibility open. This would explain
a lot of connections: Their position mentioned by Tacitus is natural
for a split between Eastern and Western Heruls. The disappearence of
the Harii and the rise of the Heruls is explained in this way. The
described character of the Harii and the Heruls corresponds. The
Germanic name could combine 2-3 existing chains of associations:
HarjaR, Hirri, Harii, Heruli, Harlungen Twinns, Harlinger Land,
Herilungevelde, Herelingas, Erell, Erilar, Eorl, Jarl - even though
some of them might be irrelevant.


> *****GK:
> To believe that the Eruli were settled in the Sea of
> Azov region we would have to accept that a group
> arrived from Scandinavia, and IMMEDIATELY became horse
> archer-warriors, IMMEDIATELY discarded their previous
> ceramics, jewellery and way of life in order to
> IMMEDIATELY and TOTALLY adopt that of the Alans.

Maybe, but isn't it then incredible too, that the Heruls 2-3 times
should travel 500 kilometres from the Chernyakhiv culture to a
Bosporanian "boat lease office" and IMMEDIATELY lease a navy and
attack the Roman Empire?

Maybe it is not so incredible after all, as I do not regard these
attacks as raids of pirates, but a tactical part of the warfare
between the Romans and the Goths and their followers - the followers
probably seen from Greece as the "people from the north" as the Goths
were mentioned themselves. In this way the emperor was put under
pressure from another front than Dacia, which was given up by
Aurelian few years later.

Maybe the Goths and Heruls simply were supported by Bosporanians and
Sarmath/Alanes in this warfare leading to a later integration between
the Eastern Heruls and some Alanic followers.

> Or even more silly: that they lived here in significant
> masses for about two centuries and left absolutely no
> trace of having been here... One cannot rely
> exclusively on Jordanes quoting Ablabius via
> Cassiodorus. One needs corroborating archaeological
> evidence, It isn't there.******
> ******* ... In the Sea of Azov area there are only
> Sarmatian and Alanic sites. To believe that the Eruli
> lived there we would have to believe that from the
> very beginning they shared a culture identical to that
> of the Sarmatians and Alans. This is unacceptable,
> because it is incredible. ..........
> There are neither urban NOR RURAL sites in the Sea of
> Azov area which indicates the settlement of Germanic
> tribes here.*****
>

I agree, that we have to accept, what is found by the archaeologists,
but can we be sure that everything is found in the area? Is the
landscape unchanged in the swamps around the mouth of river Don since
the 3rd century?

Which people lived in the old city of Tanais in the last 150 years
before it was burned down around 370 AD? To my knowledge only a third
of the names known there were Sarmathian according to Shelov.

Troels



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