[gothic-l] Re: Whence the Eruli

[george knysh]

--- troels_brandt <trbrandt at post9.tele.dk> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., george knysh <gknysh at y...>
> wrote:
>> > To believe that the Eruli were settled in the Sea
> of
> > Azov region we would have to accept that a group
> > arrived from Scandinavia, and IMMEDIATELY became
> horse
> > archer-warriors, IMMEDIATELY discarded their
> previous
> > ceramics, jewellery and way of life in order to
> > IMMEDIATELY and TOTALLY adopt that of the Alans.
>
> Maybe, but isn't it then incredible too, that the
> Heruls 2-3 times
> should travel 500 kilometres from the Chernyakhiv
> culture to a
> Bosporanian "boat lease office" and IMMEDIATELY
> lease a navy and
> attack the Roman Empire?

*****GK: What is incredible is that there is
absolutely no archaeological evidence to indicate that
the Eruli were settled in the Sea of Azov region for
multiple generations. There is nothing incredible
about their war tactics. Gajdukevich has demonstrated
that there was an internal crisis in the Bosporan
Kingdom immediately after the "Boradian" onslaught,
and that a new dynasty temporarily took over, which
fully "cooperated" with the "barbarians". If you have
an understanding such as now developed between the
Goths/Eruli and the Bosporans, indeed a military
alliance, there is nothing strange about the
Gothic/Erulian marches from their northern
settlements, from areas where their presence is indeed
abundantly attested.******
>
> Maybe the Goths and Heruls simply were supported by
> Bosporanians and
> Sarmath/Alanes in this warfare leading to a later
> integration between
> the Eastern Heruls and some Alanic followers.

*****GK: In principle all that is possible. But the
"integration" already started at the level of the
Chernyakhiv culture (which is a good example of
"integration"), and may have intensified in Hunnic
times ca.376-454. I was interested in the evidence
provided for the near total abandonment of cremation
burials by Germanic groups from the Hunnic sphere
after ca. 400.******
GK: One cannot rely
> > exclusively on Jordanes quoting Ablabius via
> > Cassiodorus. One needs corroborating
> archaeological
> > evidence, It isn't there.******
> > ******* ... In the Sea of Azov area there are only
> > Sarmatian and Alanic sites. To believe that the
> Eruli
> > lived there we would have to believe that from the
> > very beginning they shared a culture identical to
> that
> > of the Sarmatians and Alans. This is unacceptable,
> > because it is incredible. ..........
> > There are neither urban NOR RURAL sites in the Sea
> of
> > Azov area which indicates the settlement of
> Germanic
> > tribes here.*****
> >
>
> I agree, that we have to accept, what is found by
> the archaeologists,
> but can we be sure that everything is found in the
> area?

*****GK: One can always hope to make new discoveries.
My points only stand "on the basis of the available
evidence". But an undetected large scale Erulian
settlement here would have left other traces (such as
verified Germanic type objects (even if very few) in
the cultural baggage of surrounding populations (trade
nexuses). Even that is missing. Frankly I don't see
that this is a big problem. We know for a fact that
the Eruli were in "the Black Sea area". Everything
about them and their activity there (except the
Ablabian addaptation of Dexippos) remains untouched in
the context of their archaeological status as a
component of the Chernyakhiv culture (perhaps as its
easternmost projection).******


 Is the
> landscape unchanged in the swamps around the mouth
> of river Don since
> the 3rd century?

*****GK: My understanding is that there weren't that
many actual "swamps" there. The "Palus" Maeotis was so
called because of the relative shallowness of its
waters compared to the Black Sea. And the shallowest
portions were near the isthmus of Perekop, more to the
West.******
>
> Which people lived in the old city of Tanais in the
> last 150 years
> before it was burned down around 370 AD? To my
> knowledge only a third
> of the names known there were Sarmathian according
> to Shelov.

*****GK: My understanding is that after the
destruction of Greco-Sarmatian Tanais in ca. 244 AD
(or slightly earlier) there wasn't much of a city
left. The population which vegetated there was similar
to that of previous epochs, with a greater
preponderance of local esp. Sarmatian (Alanic)
elements. Practically no epigraphic material is
available from that period. At any rate there are no
"Germanic" (Chernyakhiv etc.) aspects to the culture.
=== As to the recorded names (mostly pre- 244) my
recollection is that most of the non-Sarmatian ones
were Greek, and some were "mixed" (i.e. could be
either or were a combination). No Germanic names.*****
>
> Troels
>
>
>



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