[gothic-l] Re: Whence the Eruli

[troels_brandt]

--- In gothic-l at y..., george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> --- troels_brandt <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., george knysh <gknysh at y...>
> > wrote:
> >> > To believe that the Eruli were settled in the Sea
> > of
> > > Azov region we would have to accept that a group
> > > arrived from Scandinavia, and IMMEDIATELY became
> > horse
> > > archer-warriors, IMMEDIATELY discarded their
> > previous
> > > ceramics, jewellery and way of life in order to
> > > IMMEDIATELY and TOTALLY adopt that of the Alans.
> >
> > Maybe, but isn't it then incredible too, that the
> > Heruls 2-3 times
> > should travel 500 kilometres from the Chernyakhiv
> > culture to a
> > Bosporanian "boat lease office" and IMMEDIATELY
> > lease a navy and
> > attack the Roman Empire?
>
> *****GK: What is incredible is that there is
> absolutely no archaeological evidence to indicate that
> the Eruli were settled in the Sea of Azov region for
> multiple generations. There is nothing incredible
> about their war tactics. Gajdukevich has demonstrated
> that there was an internal crisis in the Bosporan
> Kingdom immediately after the "Boradian" onslaught,
> and that a new dynasty temporarily took over, which
> fully "cooperated" with the "barbarians". If you have
> an understanding such as now developed between the
> Goths/Eruli and the Bosporans, indeed a military
> alliance, there is nothing strange about the
> Gothic/Erulian marches from their northern
> settlements, from areas where their presence is indeed
> abundantly attested.******

I agree it is possible, but I do not like to exclude historians just
because the archaeological remains are not found - concluding "on the
basis of the available evidence" as you mention below.

> > Maybe the Goths and Heruls simply were supported by
> > Bosporanians and
> > Sarmath/Alanes in this warfare
>
> *****GK: In principle all that is possible. ...........
> > I agree, that we have to accept, what is found by
> > the archaeologists,
> > but can we be sure that everything is found in the
> > area?
>
> *****GK: One can always hope to make new discoveries.
> My points only stand "on the basis of the available
> evidence".

.....................
> > before it was burned down around 370 AD? To my
> > To knowledge only a third
> > of the names known there were Sarmathian according
> > to Shelov.
>
> *****GK: My understanding is that after the
> destruction of Greco-Sarmatian Tanais in ca. 244 AD
> (or slightly earlier) there wasn't much of a city
> left. The population which vegetated there was similar
> to that of previous epochs, with a greater
> preponderance of local esp. Sarmatian (Alanic)
> elements. Practically no epigraphic material is
> available from that period. At any rate there are no
> "Germanic" (Chernyakhiv etc.) aspects to the culture.
> === As to the recorded names (mostly pre- 244) my
> recollection is that most of the non-Sarmatian ones
> were Greek, and some were "mixed" (i.e. could be
> either or were a combination). No Germanic names.*****

Unfortunately I have lost my notes about Shelov's result. As far as I
remember he wrote 35% Sarmath/Alanes, 8% other barbarians while the
rest were Greeks and Romans - meaning that the region was not totally
dominated by the Sarmath/Alanes. I do not know what he ment about
barbarians.

What about the old town of Asov at the other side of the mouth? By
the way had Don according to my map several mouths meaning often
changing landscape and swamps around the mouth.

I know it has been mentioned before, but when reached the Goths
Crimea according to archaeology?

Troels


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