[gothic-l] Re:Visi and Ostro

[Ingemar Nordgren]

Andreas wrote:
Message: 13
     Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:40:04 +0100
     From: andreas.schwarcz at univie.ac.at
Subject: Re: Re: Visi and Ostro

"Dear Ingemar,
although I find your argument on the whole sound, things are a bit
more complicated. You should not underestimate those Greuthungi
mixed with Alans (and some Huns) under the leadership of Alatheus
and Saphrac, who were settled by Gratian in Pannonia in 380 A.D.
and whose descendents followed Ataulf to Italy and Gaul. They were
strong enough to secure Ataulf the kingship of Alaric's army after
the death of Alaric. So a sizeable group of former Greuthungi took
part in the formation of the Visigoths. And the connections between
the Goths under hunnic domination (and their decendants, the
Ostrogoths) and the Visigoths continued in the fifth century and the
beginning of the sixth. The Visigoths integrated several times strong
Ostrogothic groups, the followers of Videricus, those of the two
Vidimiri, the entourage of Thiudigotho, Theodoric's daughter, who
married Alaric II, and the army which secured Theodoric's kingship,
when he became also king of the Visigoths in 510. I showed this in
detail in an article just published:"

Schüß Andreas,

I admit you are right in your remarks that Greuthungian groups were
assimilated and played an crucial role in many occasions, as you point
out. I have not underestimated those influences but still the main body
was formed by descendants of the former Vesi-Tervingi. The contacts
during the Hunnic reign I am also aware of, but this all the time deals
with Greuthungi groups leaving the Huns. We have also the problem of the
parallel Greuthungi kingdom with the child king  brought away by Alateus
and Saphrax and which was tried to establish within the limes. It should
maybe be regarded as a separate kingship and not be mingled with the
Vesi. I never, however, found out how long time this opposition lasted
but, as you know, I have treated it in my book.If your newly published
article spreads some light on that I am indeed interested.The royal Amal
genealogy of Jordanes/Cassiodorus differs besides from Marcellinus
Ammianus and is, as you know, not specially reliable. Generally spoken
there still are two bodies  of Goths with an originally common
background forming two different realms and  the original divison
still must be regarded to have happened in connection with the forming
of Gutþiuða and  that is the most simple way to keep order of the broad
lines. Also the fact that Cassiodorus admits the Vesi were the group
who primarily was used as allies by the Romans already before 376,  and
that they were the first to be established witin limes shows that the
main body of the Visigoths must have been from that group.  Then, of
course, you may make more detailed investigations in smaller parts but
this may also tend to make it very hard to get a general wiew. I do
appreciate the search for detailed knowledge from Oskar and other
because it may help explain single happenings in the later Gothic
history but the broad lines might not be altered. From the beginning
however I agree with Wenskus that there were a great number of single
tribes moving southwards and it is dubious  when, or if, a þiuðans had
control over the whole corpus. Perhaps the þiuðans was in fact a
Greuthungian reiks also ruling over the allies. Kniva was later called
'king of the army', meaning the Western army, showing there must have
been somebody higher but I guess we will never know. The mythical
Ostrogotha must in any case have been regarded a reiks, not a þiuðans.

Kind regards
Ingemar



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