[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Eruli in the East-Migration period legends.

[faltin2001]

> > 
> > Hi Einar,
> > 
> > on what basis do these scholars belief that Heruls brought these 
> > legends to Scandinavia? Who brought the legends to other places 
> like 
> > modern Germany?
> > 
> >    **** Einar; Hæ Dirk.                                         
>    
>    
>  We know of no other possible migration of a whole group of people 
to 
> Scandinavia (500-900 A.D)than the possible migration of a part of 
the 
> Heruli tribe 
> in the sixth century which fit well with the time that these 
legends 
> could have been transmitted to Scandinavia.
> 
> Such extensive material and knowledge being transferred can not 
have 
> happened because of trade because the transfer of this material was 
> bound to be transferred by professionals in oral preservation. 
> Professional individuals trained in oral preservation of 
> laws,genealogies and legends important for the tribe/clan/familiy.


Hi Einar,

You mean that this polyethnic band of Eruli -containing all kinds of 
Hunnic, Sarmtian and other elements- possessed 'professional story-
tellers or poets who transmitted these stories to Scandinavia?








> The Heruli being the transmitters are simply the bext explanation 
we 
> have. 


That is very subjective. Remember that these stories were written 
down many centuries after the events, especially in Scandinavia. In 
the meantime, we have no way of knowing in what form they were passed 
on until one gifted writer took up the various characters and 
fragments to compose his works. The Hildebrandslied which was written 
down in Old High German in about 780AD is a good example. While the 
setting and some characters are historical the main underlying story 
is essentially wrong, putting the real events on its head. In this 
case the legend was passed on orally only for some 300 years. For 
most of the Icelanding sagas etc. this time-span can be 900 years.




That is transmitted by Heruli aristocratic families migrating 
> to Scandinavia.
> 
> From Icelandic culture(Sigurður Norðdal)
> About Eddic poetry. Quote. "One fact ,however, is indisputable: 
they 
> have been recorded nowhere outside of Iceland...........
> Five of the poems are generally considered oldest in 
> origin...Hamðismál(Lay of Hamðir),about the death of
> Jörmunrekur(Ermaneric)) king of the Goths, who committed suicide in 
> the year 
> 375 ,Attlakviða(lay of Atli(Attila) king of the Huns who died
> in 453 ......(The greater lay of Sigurðr)......
> ...,Hlöðskviða(lay of Hlöðr),, preserved in Hervars saga which 
seems 
> to be composed about 
> the great battle of the Catalaunian Fields in the year 451 and 
which 
> ought to be counted among the heroic poems of the Edda.; and then 
> Völundarkviða(Lay of Völundr).....
> 
> What is the reason for that this material was just preserved in 
> Iceland? The country which is very much a outlier in Europe. 
Actually 
> is more near the American Continent than the European one.What is 
the 
> reason? Why was it not preserved in Scandinavia and Germany if this 
> knowledge "was common everywhere" ??


The reason is quite obvious I think. The areas of what is now Germany 
and Austria embarked on a completely different course of literary 
development. The Hildebrandlied was only recorded because a monk 
needed something to practice his writing skills. So he wrote down the 
Hildebrandlied which he simply knew by head. Otherwise these legends 
were already falling out of fashion in areas that were become more 
deeply Christianised. Thus, in the 8th to 11th century much of Old 
High German literature is dealing with Christian themes (Wessobrunner 
Gebet, Muspilli, Heliand etc.). Than came the period of arictocratic 
Minnesang in the 12th/13th century. By the time the Icelanding Sagas 
were written (mid-13th century) Minnesang had already passed its 
zenith. An expection is the Niebelungenlied, were an author sought to 
write the ballad in the style of French epic balands and adapted 
components of various legends going back to the Burgundians and Huns. 

In short, already by 800AD nobody in the Christian areas would have 
dreamt of deliberately recording old Germanic legends and by 1250 
many will already have been lost.  







> I guess legends about Attila and the others were rather common as 
> folktales and stories as would have been maybe normal. But such 
> knowledge and material preserved in Iceland is not in such a 
> category. As said before such material in all its volume had to be 
> preserved by professionals in oral transmitting and oral > 
preservation.



Can I ask what do you mean by 'in such a volume'? The Nibelungenlied 
alone is probably longer than all Iclanding sagas and legends 
together.  

Also, there is a large circle of tales and shorter legends. Consider 
only the numberous Dietrich (Theoderich)-legends that are still 
around.





> Professionals that came from families that from within professional 
> scalds emerged.
> 
> From Cambridge Studies in Medieval literature 42. Old Icelandic 
> Literature and Society. Published 2000.
> Quote page 42; the oldest record of a skaldic stanza is in runes on 
> the Karlevi stone in Oland(Sweden), dated to c.1000.
> 
> Talking about court poets in Norway and kings surrounded by 
> courtpoets.
> Quote; ....Alltogether seventeen skalds,fifteen of whom we know for 
> certain to be Icelanders.......
> Among the skalds who joined the royal courts of Norway during the 
> period of 1000-30 were the protagonists of many of the Icelandic 
> family sagas.....
> Some of the poets who entered royal service during this period 
> belonged to powerful Icelandic families with strong poetic 
traditions.
> 
> This Cambridge book is not all bad but mostly so.. Echoing outdated 
> views. Very conservative and uncritical of sources. But that was to 
> be expected. I guess just "established facts" find their way into 
> such a book.
> 
>  Professional skills were needed for oral preservation of extensive 
> material of laws and legends. Such material was no "common 
knowledge".
> Obviously nobody beliefs that anymore. Not even the most 
conservative 
> of scholars. The best explanation for all this material preserved 
in 
> Iceland is that the East Scand. chieftainly families preserving 
this 
> material and knowledge were descendants of the Heruli. That 
> hypothesis explains most of the problems in a most satisfactory 
> manner. And should therefore be adopted as a possibility.
> 
> Snorri Sturluson was of the Oddaverjar family that was one of those 
> East Scand. chieftainly families coming to Iceland. Oddaverjar was 
> considered by themselves to be descendants of Skjoldungar that is 
> considered themselves to be descendants of the Heruli. 



What is the source that states the the Skjoldungar are the 
descendants of the Heruli??? 






Instead of 
> calling them Heruli the name Skjoldungar was used.
> 
> 
> Saga literature in Iceland could be created because of ancient 
> knowledge preserved by descendants of the Heruli and their 
traditions 
> in oral preservation and because of Irish knowledge of writing and 
> preserving knowledge in such a way.
> That is at least the hypothesis that explains most of the problems 
we 
> have in a most satisfactory manner. And should therefore be adopted.
> 
> 
> > > It comes as a natural step to assume and make a hypothesis then 
> > that 
> > > these chieftainly families had the Heruli as ancestors. 
> > 
> > 
> > I would regard it as a natural step if it was an established fact 
> of 
> > early medieval Swedish history that Heruls made up the ruling 
> elites 
> > of East Scandinavia. However, my reading and from Oscar's 
comments 
> I 
> > gather that this is not the case. Therefore I don't find this 
> natural 
> > at all.
> > 
>    *****Einar; It is very natural actually. Established facts are 
no 
> yardstick here. It was a established fact  until a few years ago 
that 
> Icelanders were just emigrated native Norwegians shopping a few 
> slaves in Ireland on their way to Iceland recently being "found" by 
a 
> Norwegian. 




In other words the theory that Icelanders are partly decendants of 
Eruli is 'cutting edge' research;-) ?




These "established facts" were never any facts and nobody
> believes this anymore.(Though some scholars pretend to to so) So we 
> have to be careful sometimes about those "established facts"
> 
> If etymologically there is a strong conection between the word 
> ´heruli,eruli´ to ´jarl,earl´ etc then that shows that
> the Heruli 
> chieftainly families kept on being the elité/ruling class after
> their 
> arrival to Scandinavia.


That is not an established fact. In fact, I think it is quite 
unlikely.


                                            
> And the fact that the Illyrian Heruli sent a embassy to Scandinavia 
> to fetch one of their royal blood to become king over them proves 
> that the aristocratic/royal families had kept on beeing the 
> elité/overclass in Scandinavia too. Otherwise this travel of the 
> Illyrian Heruls to Scandinavia and arrival of the royal candidate
> (presumably with lots of people with him as warriors and other 
> supporters) would not have happened. And could not have happened.


Well, the Illyrian Heruls were a very minor 'bunch'. Being their king 
amounted probably to less than being a local offical in other areas 
of the Empire. Procopius told us that the Heruls had no respect for 
their king; everybody could treat him as he wished, adding that they 
killed Ochos for no particular reason. Not exactly an attractive 
position if you are doing so well in Scandinavia, isn't it?

cheers,
Dirk


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Tiny Wireless Camera under $80!
Order Now! FREE VCR Commander!
Click Here - Only 1 Day Left!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/