[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Eruli in the East-Migration period legends.

[einarbirg]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > 

> 
> Hi Einar,
> 
> on what basis do these scholars belief that Heruls brought these 
> legends to Scandinavia? Who brought the legends to other places 
like 
> modern Germany?
> 
>    **** Einar; Hæ Dirk.                                         
   
   
 We know of no other possible migration of a whole group of people to 
Scandinavia (500-900 A.D)than the possible migration of a part of the 
Heruli tribe 
in the sixth century which fit well with the time that these legends 
could have been transmitted to Scandinavia.

Such extensive material and knowledge being transferred can not have 
happened because of trade because the transfer of this material was 
bound to be transferred by professionals in oral preservation. 
Professional individuals trained in oral preservation of 
laws,genealogies and legends important for the tribe/clan/familiy.
The Heruli being the transmitters are simply the bext explanation we 
have. That is transmitted by Heruli aristocratic families migrating 
to Scandinavia.

>From Icelandic culture(Sigurður Norðdal)
About Eddic poetry. Quote. "One fact ,however, is indisputable: they 
have been recorded nowhere outside of Iceland...........
Five of the poems are generally considered oldest in 
origin...Hamðismál(Lay of Hamðir),about the death of
Jörmunrekur(Ermaneric)) king of the Goths, who committed suicide in 
the year 
375 ,Attlakviða(lay of Atli(Attila) king of the Huns who died
in 453 ......(The greater lay of Sigurðr)......
...,Hlöðskviða(lay of Hlöðr),, preserved in Hervars saga which seems 
to be composed about 
the great battle of the Catalaunian Fields in the year 451 and which 
ought to be counted among the heroic poems of the Edda.; and then 
Völundarkviða(Lay of Völundr).....

What is the reason for that this material was just preserved in 
Iceland? The country which is very much a outlier in Europe. Actually 
is more near the American Continent than the European one.What is the 
reason? Why was it not preserved in Scandinavia and Germany if this 
knowledge "was common everywhere" ??
I guess legends about Attila and the others were rather common as 
folktales and stories as would have been maybe normal. But such 
knowledge and material preserved in Iceland is not in such a 
category. As said before such material in all its volume had to be 
preserved by professionals in oral transmitting and oral preservation.
Professionals that came from families that from within professional 
scalds emerged.

>From Cambridge Studies in Medieval literature 42. Old Icelandic 
Literature and Society. Published 2000.
Quote page 42; the oldest record of a skaldic stanza is in runes on 
the Karlevi stone in Oland(Sweden), dated to c.1000.

Talking about court poets in Norway and kings surrounded by 
courtpoets.
Quote; ....Alltogether seventeen skalds,fifteen of whom we know for 
certain to be Icelanders.......
Among the skalds who joined the royal courts of Norway during the 
period of 1000-30 were the protagonists of many of the Icelandic 
family sagas.....
Some of the poets who entered royal service during this period 
belonged to powerful Icelandic families with strong poetic traditions.

This Cambridge book is not all bad but mostly so.. Echoing outdated 
views. Very conservative and uncritical of sources. But that was to 
be expected. I guess just "established facts" find their way into 
such a book.

 Professional skills were needed for oral preservation of extensive 
material of laws and legends. Such material was no "common knowledge".
Obviously nobody beliefs that anymore. Not even the most conservative 
of scholars. The best explanation for all this material preserved in 
Iceland is that the East Scand. chieftainly families preserving this 
material and knowledge were descendants of the Heruli. That 
hypothesis explains most of the problems in a most satisfactory 
manner. And should therefore be adopted as a possibility.

Snorri Sturluson was of the Oddaverjar family that was one of those 
East Scand. chieftainly families coming to Iceland. Oddaverjar was 
considered by themselves to be descendants of Skjoldungar that is 
considered themselves to be descendants of the Heruli. Instead of 
calling them Heruli the name Skjoldungar was used.


Saga literature in Iceland could be created because of ancient 
knowledge preserved by descendants of the Heruli and their traditions 
in oral preservation and because of Irish knowledge of writing and 
preserving knowledge in such a way.
That is at least the hypothesis that explains most of the problems we 
have in a most satisfactory manner. And should therefore be adopted.


> > It comes as a natural step to assume and make a hypothesis then 
> that 
> > these chieftainly families had the Heruli as ancestors. 
> 
> 
> I would regard it as a natural step if it was an established fact 
of 
> early medieval Swedish history that Heruls made up the ruling 
elites 
> of East Scandinavia. However, my reading and from Oscar's comments 
I 
> gather that this is not the case. Therefore I don't find this 
natural 
> at all.
> 
   *****Einar; It is very natural actually. Established facts are no 
yardstick here. It was a established fact  until a few years ago that 
Icelanders were just emigrated native Norwegians shopping a few 
slaves in Ireland on their way to Iceland recently being "found" by a 
Norwegian. These "established facts" were never any facts and nobody
believes this anymore.(Though some scholars pretend to to so) So we 
have to be careful sometimes about those "established facts"

If etymologically there is a strong conection between the word 
´heruli,eruli´ to ´jarl,earl´ etc then that shows that
the Heruli 
chieftainly families kept on being the elité/ruling class after
their 
arrival to Scandinavia.                                            
And the fact that the Illyrian Heruli sent a embassy to Scandinavia 
to fetch one of their royal blood to become king over them proves 
that the aristocratic/royal families had kept on beeing the 
elité/overclass in Scandinavia too. Otherwise this travel of the 
Illyrian Heruls to Scandinavia and arrival of the royal candidate
(presumably with lots of people with him as warriors and other 
supporters) would not have happened. And could not have happened. It 
is obvious that the Heruli chieftainly/aristocratic famlies in 
Scandinavia had not lost their status in society. They were still 
among the ruling class/upper class and now in Scandinavia. The story 
of the return of the royal canditate from Thule proves that.

> 
> 
> But nothing can be proved 
> > there and Barði did not really try so 
> either.                         
> > Only good and solid archaeological and genetic reaserch can prove 
> > this theory beyond any reasonable 
> doubt.                              
> > And you do not seem to be impressed by the fact that genetic 
> reaserch 
> > so far seems to support this theory!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If genetic research somehow shows that East Scandinavians moved to 
> Iceland, I have no reason to doubt that. However, I don't believe 
> that there is a 'Herulic gene' that could be discovered. Heruls 
were 
> a policitally defined group not a biological group. Especially from 
> Pohl's interpretation that I laid out in my last letter to you, it 
is 
> clear that the Herulic kingdom gained in strengh by the 
affilitation 
> of the most diverse warrior groups, who united under leadership of 
> the Herulic king and who became Heruls themselves. Thus, some 
Heruls 
> may have been of Sarmatian ethnic origin, others may have been of 
> Alanic origin and probably a good deal of them might have been of 
> Hunnic or mixed Germanic/Hunnic origin, as is perhaps suggested by 
> the large proportion of artificial skull deformations in supposedly 
> Herulic areas. In fact, I believe that many people would be in for 
a 
> shock if they saw real Eastern Heruls of the late 5th century. 
> Instead of fairhaired and blue-eyed giants many might have been 
more 
> akin to Mongols or Iranians. Especially the elite families will 
> likely have intermarried with their former masters the Huns.  Pohl 
> called even the Greutungi and Tervingi 'polyethnic warrior bands', 
> thus the Heruls are probably similar to that. 

   ***********Einar;  I agree with you here. I can very well belief 
that the 
Heruli moving to Scandinavia were of a very mixed ancestry. Of course 
there are no Heruli gene. Does not matter. If genetic reaserch shows 
a strong influx of genes coming with the settlers to Iceland that can 
be traced outside of Scandinavia and the British Isles(that is to 
Continental Europe) then that  indicates a Continental origin of 
some part of the gene pool. That is as genetic scientist Agnar 
Helgason says when saying that a part of the original settlers seem 
to have been carrying a gene pool that can be traced to  outside of 
Scand. and Brit. Isles. That is to Continental Europe.

There seems to be a connection to Austria and Germany which the 
scientists found surprising. I think that reaserch in Eastern Europe 
is missing to a great extent.
If the Heruli moving to Scandinavia were so mixed as you seem to be 
indicating then that is supported by the genetic reaserch.
If the original Heruli were just Scandinavians moving around in 
Europe for a few hundreds years not mixing(or little) with the 
populations they 
encountered, then they would by genetically the same as 
Scandinavians. 
But I do not belief this. I think that the Heruli moving up North 
were of a very mixed ancestry. As you claim. Otherwise the outcome of 
genetic reaserch in Iceland would not be as it is. And it is too a 
common sense to assume that they were very mixed. 

By that nobody can say it was the Heruli suppling continental 
European genes with the settlers of Iceland in such a considerable 
amount as to be a clear factor. That is not with certainty. But who 
else then?? Do we have any alternative than the Heruli? As I 
understand it then the Heruli migration to Scandinavia is the only 
migration to those parts of the world involving a substantial amount 
of people happening in the period from 500 A.D. to 900 A.D.
As for now the Heruli hypothesis is the best one. And should 
therefore be adopted as a possibility.
> 
> 
> > What to belief if not solid genetic 
> reaserch?                         
> > I suspect that genetic reaserch will solve this matter for us 
some 
> > day. 
> 
> 
> I hope so, but from my understanding it does not seem likely, 
because 
> Heruls are not a biologically defined group.

  ******Einar; That is right. And the question will never be solved 
beyond 
any 100% doubt.At most, DNA reaserch could make good support for this 
hypothesis but doubtly prove anything.
We will see what happens.

  Bless,bless Einar.
> 
> 
> cheers,
> Dirk


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