[gothic-l] The extent of Ermanarik's realm

[george knysh]

--- Bertil Haggman <mvk575b at tninet.se> wrote:
> Well, maybe Jordanes did mean different
> things when writing about Germania. The
> commentator of the recent translation of _Getica_,
> into Swedish, Andreas Nordin, in his commentary
> indicates that there is limited historical knowledge
> about Ermanarik. He created, so Nordin, an
> Ostrogothic
> confederation of peoples subjugated. Personally
> I think that is a rather good description.

*****GK: But the issue is not so much the description,
felicitous or not, as the extent of this
"confederation".*****
>
> Actually Jordanes does enumrate a number of
> peoples under Ermanarik but they are all rather
> tough to decipher.
>
> Goltescytha
>
> This could possibly taken as meaning "gold people"
> (Ural). "Scytha" seems to be added by mistake by
> some
> scribe.

*****GK: What you have here is a singular not a
plural. "Golthescytha" is an adulatory epithet affixed
to Hermanaric "the Golden Scythian", not a reference
to a people. *****
>
> Thiudos
> Inaunxis
>
> Maybe living close to the Golte(scytha).

*****GK: "Thiudos" is clearly "people". This word was
borrowed into the Primary Chronicle of Kyiv and meant
either the Estonians (short sense) or the Finno-Ugrian
peoples of the north (extensive sense). In Old East
Slavic "Thiudos" became "Chud' " (T-SHOOD'). "Aunxis"
has been identified as a region abutting on Finnish
Karelia.*******
>
> Vasinabroncae
>
> Those living on flat land with rich grazing ground,
> good access to
> water and with marshes.

*****GK: The only clear thing about this is that "Vas"
are the "Ves'" of the Lake Onega region, an Ugro-Finn
people also well known to the compilers of the Kyivan
Chronicle*****
>
> Merens
> Mordens
>
> These two are usually identified as peoples living
> along the Volga.
> This was one of the reasons I stated earlier that
> Ermanarik's realm
> may have as its furthest east the River Volga.

*****GK: These are the Merya and Mordva of the Primary
chronicle. The latter still exist today. They have an
autonomous republic in Russia.******
>
> Imniscaris
>
> A possible explanation of this people name could be
> the beekeepers.

*****GK: From this point on the names are garbled
beyond adequate recovery, though a plausible
interpretation on "Imniscaris" as "in Miscaris" has
recently been offered (where Miscaris is "Meshcherya"
which is located to the south of the Mordva)*****
>
> Rogas
> Tadzans
>
> R. an T. also maybe living along the River Volga
>
> Athaul
> Navego
> Bubegenae
> Coldae
>
> These four people I have no further on.
>
> Veneti
> (having three names Veneti, Antes, Sclaveni)
>
> The Veneti has been explained as the Wends. Antes a
> Caucasian people (?) and the Sclaveni the Slavs.

*****GK: Actually both Antes and Sclaveni (and Venethi
for that matter) are those we would call Slavs. There
is no problem here.******
>
> "Historical truth" is a variation of different
> views. Those
> who believe they have attained knowledge of
> "historical
> truth" often end up in trouble.

*****GK: Indeed. But try not to twist someone's point
into something they never said. That is not helpful at
all. "Closer to historical truth" is not identical
with or to "historical truth". *****
>
> Could you please advise the exact reference of the
> Germania and Scythia reference?

*****GK: Both the original Latin and the English
translation by Mierow are available on line. The
sections of the Getica to reread in the latter are:
10-11, 17, 30-37.*******
>
> Bertil Haggman
>
>
>
> > As a matter of fact it is possible to know
> > "exactly" what Jordanes meant by "Germania" and
> > "Scythia". Kindly reread GETICA II-V, and you will
> see
> > that Germania includes all the territories between
> > Gaul and the r. Vistula, and west of a line
> extending
> > southwestward from the source of the Vistula to
> the
> > point where the Danube begins to be called
> "Ister",
> > which leaves Transylvania and the Gepids on the
> > "Scythian" side. The northern boundary is the sea.
> As
> > for Scythia it extends eastward from the Vistula
> etc.
> > border with Germania, as far as the Caspian Sea
> and
> > beyond, and as far as Persia. Its northern
> boundary is
> > also the sea, and the southern boundary includes
> the
> > Black Sea coastline, and stretches into the
> Caucasus
> > area. It is these huge territories, from Rhine to
> > Caspian, and from the northern Ocean to the Black
> Sea
> > and to Persia that Jordanes claimed to have been
> > subject to Hermanaric. I think that
> Maenchen-Helfen's
> > reference to Jordanes' fantasy as a "hymn" is a
> very
> > kind judgement, all things considered. Either we
> take
> > Jordanes at face value, and then his contention is
> > simply ridiculous, or we say that he didn't
> "really"
> > mean ALL the nations of "Germania" and "Scythia"
> when
> > he said "all the nations of Germania and Scythia".
> But
> > in that case we don't really know what he meant,
> and
> > must try to reconstruct reality on the basis of a
> > critical examination of other sources, including
> other
> > passages of Jordanes. Which inevitably leads to
> > serious "reductionism", but brings us much closer
> to
> > historical truth.
>
>
>


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