[gothic-l] The extent of Ermanarik's realm

[george knysh]

--- Bertil Haggman <mvk575b at tninet.se> wrote:
>
>  Golthescytha is a direct quote from Jordanes.
> By others it is regarded as a people name,
> although it might as a coincident end with an "a".

*****GK: As to the "a" I prefer the professional
opinion of first class linguists posting on
cybalist at yahoogroups.com to the views of "others". In
any case it doesn't really matter with respect to the
issue, since it is  improbable in the highest degree
that Hermanaric would have begun his "imperial quest"
with the "subjugation" of these arctoi gentes, located
many hundreds of kilometers to the north of him, and
beyond the Slavs and Balts. This is pure fantasy, on a
par with the ridiculous statement that he dominated
"all the nations of Germania and Scythia".******
>
> So the "Primary Chronicle" was written before
> _Getica_?

*****GK: Of course not.*****
>
> Are you in the case of the Mordva referring
> to the Mordvines and their entity?

*****GK: Painfully obvious.*******
>
>(BH) 10-11 and 17 in the Mierow translation has no
> description of Germania as far as I can see.

*****GK:(Getica 10):"But now let me speak briefly as I
can concerning the island of Britain, which is
situated in the bosom of Ocean between Spain, Gaul and
Germany."= Germany neighbours on Gaul. (Getica
11):"Its long doubled side faces Gaul and Germany"=
confirms the above. No surprises since Jordanes is not
providing esoteric information but relying on the
prior work of Greek and Latin authors. Conclusion: for
Jordanes as for them Germany begins at the Rhine,
which is where Gaul ends.
(Getica 17):"the river Vistula, which rises in the
Sarmatian mountains and flows through its triple mouth
into the northern Ocean in sight of Scandza,
separating Germany and Scythia."= The Vistula is the
boundary between Germania and Scythia. Clear as
rainwater.******

> The word is mentioned but 10-11 is as far as
> I see e description of Britain. I can find no
> description of Germania in 17. Maybe be you
> can help here?

*****GK: If Germany begins at the Rhine and ends at
the Vistula then it contains the territory in between.
Elementary hermeneutics. See above.*****
>
> Scythia is described in 30-31 and there is a
> comment: "On the west are the Germans
> (Germanics?) and the river Vistula."

*****GK: Which confirms the statement in section
17.****
>
> Bertil Haggman
>
>
>
>
>
> (GK) "Golthescytha" is an adulatory epithet affixed
> > to Hermanaric "the Golden Scythian", not a
> reference
> > to a people.
>
> >"Thiudos" is clearly "people". This word was
> > borrowed into the Primary Chronicle of Kyiv and
> meant
> > either the Estonians (short sense) or the
> Finno-Ugrian
> > peoples of the north (extensive sense). In Old
> East
> > Slavic "Thiudos" became "Chud' " (T-SHOOD').
> "Aunxis"
> > has been identified as a region abutting on
> Finnish
> > Karelia.
>
> > The only clear thing about this is that "Vas"
> > are the "Ves'" of the Lake Onega region, an
> Ugro-Finn
> > people also well known to the compilers of the
> Kyivan
> > Chronicle.
>
> > These are the Merya and Mordva of the Primary
> > chronicle. The latter still exist today. They have
> an
> > autonomous republic in Russia.******
>
> > From this point on the names are garbled
> > beyond adequate recovery, though a plausible
> > interpretation on "Imniscaris" as "in Miscaris"
> has
> > recently been offered (where Miscaris is
> "Meshcherya"
> > which is located to the south of the Mordva).
>
> > Actually both Antes and Sclaveni (and Venethi
> > for that matter) are those we would call Slavs.
> There
> > is no problem here.
>
> > The
> > sections of the Getica to reread in the latter
> are:
> > 10-11, 17, 30-37.
>
>
>




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