[gothic-l] Ermanrik's Regnum Ostrogotorum

[george knysh]

--- Bertil Haggman <mvk575b at tninet.se> wrote:
> Let me quote Mierow (not the net edition, but a copy
> of the original):

*****GK: You should learn to read Latin before getting
involved in discussions about the meaning of Jordanes'
text.*****
>
> What is it about "imperial quest"? Or the time
> frame,
> where did it start, where did it end?

*****GK: It's difficult to help someone who forgets
dates mentioned only a couple of days ago. The
standard notion is 350-370 AD which might be stretched
to 345-375 AD. In Jordanes' imagination it "ended"
with the death of Hermanaric at the age of 110. So we
have this remarkable individual entering on a process
of empire-building at the age of 80 or so (if one
believes Jordanes).******

 Are you
> suggesting
> that Golthescytha and others were first and the came
> others?

*****GK: It's impossible to carry on a discussion with
someone who doesn't even understand the simplest
texts. It is not ME who is suggesting the above, but
JORDANES. He is the author of the sequences in Getica,
not I.Get it? Probably not...*****

 Fantasy or not I am not claiming to come
> "close to historical truth". Why is the statement of
> Jordanes "ridiculous"?

*****GK: How many times does one have to repeat that
the claim that Hermanaric dominated "ALL the nations
of Germania and Scythia" in the period in question is
completely at variance with what we know of the
epoch's history? The standard definition of
"ridiculous" is= "unworthy of serious consideration;
absurd". What Jordanes claims is precisely that. Get
it?******

 > There is in my opinion no description of Germania
> in section 10 of _Getica_.

*****GK: There are mentions of Germania which are
unambiguous in context. There are references to other
geographers, Greek and Latin, on whom Jordanes relied.
You probably if not certainly don't know any of them.
Take Pomponius Mela for instance. Have you read his
work? (Purely rhetorical question. Of course you
haven't).Or Strabo, or Ptolemy? They are Jordanes'
AUTHORITIES. Do you understand the meaning of this
word? It means that on crucial issues of geographical
identifications he FOLLOWS them, unless the contrary
is clearly stated. That Germania begins (in the
West)at the Rhine is not an issue, is not up for
discussion, is not an "opinion". It is an elementary
fact. If you don't grasp this your arguments are
meaningless. *****

 What is clear to
> you as rainwater is just your interpretation. And
> was
> the case not the question of Regnum Ostrogothorum
> and its
> western limits? Certainly these deductions of yours
> do
> not give enough detailed information to draw any
> conclusions.

******GK: If Jordanes' statement that the Vistula r.
is the boundary between Germany and Scythia is not
clear as rainwater to you, then further discussion is
a complete waste of time.*******
>
> Bertil Haggman
>
>
> > As to the "a" I prefer the professional
> > opinion of first class linguists posting on
> > cybalist at yahoogroups.com to the views of "others".
> In
> > any case it doesn't really matter with respect to
> the
> > issue, since it is  improbable in the highest
> degree
> > that Hermanaric would have begun his "imperial
> quest"
> > with the "subjugation" of these arctoi gentes,
> located
> > many hundreds of kilometers to the north of him,
> and
> > beyond the Slavs and Balts. This is pure fantasy,
> on a
> > par with the ridiculous statement that he
> dominated
> > "all the nations of Germania and Scythia".
>
> > >(BH) 10-11 and 17 in the Mierow translation has
> no
> > > description of Germania as far as I can see.
> >
> > (Getica 10)"But now let me speak briefly as I
> > can concerning the island of Britain, which is
> > situated in the bosom of Ocean between Spain, Gaul
> and
> > Germany."= Germany neighbours on Gaul. (Getica
> > 11):"Its long doubled side faces Gaul and
> Germany"=
> > confirms the above. No surprises since Jordanes is
> not
> > providing esoteric information but relying on the
> > prior work of Greek and Latin authors. Conclusion:
> for
> > Jordanes as for them Germany begins at the Rhine,
> > which is where Gaul ends.
> > (Getica 17):"the river Vistula, which rises in the
> > Sarmatian mountains and flows through its triple
> mouth
> > into the northern Ocean in sight of Scandza,
> > separating Germany and Scythia."= The Vistula is
> the
> > boundary between Germania and Scythia. Clear as
> > rainwater.
> >
> > If Germany begins at the Rhine and ends at
> > the Vistula then it contains the territory in
> between.
> > Elementary hermeneutics. See above.
>
>
>




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