[gothic-l] Ermanrik's Regnum Ostrogotorum

[Bertil Haggman]

No, I haven't forgotten. Was just wondering
what kind of time frame you had. Yes,
I know about the possible old age of
Ermanarik according to Jordanes, but
we must not look upon Jordanes as
hard fact, but an important source to
be evaluated.

You are free at any time to seize this
discussion, which was started at your
own initiative. A number of views and
texts have been presented on the
Regnum Ostrogotorum of interest.

What other source would you like to
present to bolster the argument . There
does not seem to be much to show
for the your limits the Regnum Ostrogotorum.
Unless you come up with some more
I think it is better you accept the fact
of your being close to the historical truth
as an optimist's vain hope. Also
it does not make for a fruitful discussion
to cry "ridiculous". Rather look upon
your own view as being just one of
many interpretations.

It is likely that Jordanes was aware of
Plinius, Tacitus, Ptolemaios. In 16 Jordanes
even mentions Claudius Ptolemaios and
Pomponius Mela as sources. But that does
not necessarily mean that Jordanes
automatically accepted their descriptions.
You have veered somewhat off course here.
I have explained in clear terms why I personally
don't think the Regnum Ostrogotorum ended
at Rhine and that if Jordanes is writing
that Ermanarik reigned Scythia and Germania
this is not to be taken as a hard fact.

Although I don't find the discussion with you as
a complete waste of time I think maybe it is a
good idea to end the discussion. As you believe
you have arrived close to the historical truth
that would likely mean that you find that the
question of the limits Regnum Ostrogotorum is
solved and commentary that does not fit into this
solution are not worthy of consideration.

To sum up the my views based on other sources
than yours (except for Jordanes): the Regnum
Ostrogotorum was a confederation of peoples ruled
by Ermanaric. It is of course impossible to to exactly
delineate any borders but the confederation likely
stretched from The Baltic Sea in the north, the River Volga
in the east and the Caspian sea and the Black sea
in the south. The western limits are more unsure
but likely did not stretch further than the River Elbe.

Bertil Haggman





> It's difficult to help someone who forgets
> dates mentioned only a couple of days ago. The
> standard notion is 350-370 AD which might be stretched
> to 345-375 AD. In Jordanes' imagination it "ended"
> with the death of Hermanaric at the age of 110. So we
> have this remarkable individual entering on a process
> of empire-building at the age of 80 or so (if one
> believes Jordanes).

> It's impossible to carry on a discussion with
> someone who doesn't even understand the simplest
> texts. It is not ME who is suggesting the above, but
> JORDANES.

> How many times does one have to repeat that
> the claim that Hermanaric dominated "ALL the nations
> of Germania and Scythia" in the period in question is
> completely at variance with what we know of the
> epoch's history? The standard definition of
> "ridiculous" is= "unworthy of serious consideration;
> absurd". What Jordanes claims is precisely that.

> There are mentions of Germania which are
> unambiguous in context. There are references to other
> geographers, Greek and Latin, on whom Jordanes relied.

> further discussion is
> a complete waste of time.



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