[gothic-l] Re: The Formation of the Goths

[Oskar Andersson]

> --- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > "From this island of Scandza, as from a factory of tribes
> > or a wom of peoples...the Goths are said to have migrated
> > long ago under their king Berig. As soon as they had dis-
> > embarked from their ships and had set foot on land, they
> > gave the place a name; for even today it is said to be
> > called Gothiscandza. From there they soon advanced
> > against the settlements of the Ulmerugi, who at that
> > time lived on the shores of the sea, made war upon
> > them, engaged in a battle, and drove them from the land.
> > At that time they subjugated their neighbors, the Vandals,
> > and by their victories forced the to jin the Gothic rule...
> >
> > This is the beginning of the memoria, the Amal tribal
> > history of the Goths, which Cassiodorus recorded and
> > which Jordanes preserved for posterity. As late as the
> > sixth century Theoderic the Great insisted that his family
> > had originated in Scandinavia and had made the long
> > trek from there by way of eastern Pomerania and the
> > Vistula to the Black Sea, thence to Pannonia and Moesia,
> > and finally to Italy. In view of the enormous energy that
> > scholarship has invested in defending or refuting the
> > Scandinavian origin of the Goths, one could ask why
> > we do not believe Theoderic and accept his claim - of
> > course not as hard fact but as motif of a saga..."
> >
> > When rereading the above section of Chapter 2 of Wolfram
> > (1988) I was struck by the similarity of the middle ground
> > taken by Professor Wolfram similar to that of Professor
> > Hermodsson in _Goterna_.
> >
> > Gothically
> >
> > Bertil
>
>
>
>
>
> This is one of your main problems. You just take a passage, which you
> like, out of context from any source or book and present it as 'the'
> opinion of an authorative author. You should read Wolfram's section
> on 'origo and religio' (I think that is how it is called. I provide
> the reference tomorrow) to get a full and correct understanding of
> his views in this matter. He states that there was no migration of a
> Gothic tribe or people from Scandinavia, but helds that some
> traditions of the Goths were linked to Scandinavia.
>
> Dirk

Although risking to rip smth out of its context, here is what Wolfram
says on p. 39 and 40 in the "New and completely revised
from the second German edition" - History of the Goths.

"Does this mean, after all, that the Goths originated in Scandinavia?
Reinhard Wenskus has already given an answer, which ought to be
slightly modified: not entire peoples but small successful clans, the
bearers of prestigious traditions, emigrated and became the founders of
new gentes. In this sense it is possible that a group of Gutae, which the
Gothic memoria identified with King Berig and his followers, left Scandinavia
long before the Amali and contributed to the ethnogenesis of the Gutones in
East Pomerania-Masovia."

There are many passages of this chapter in Wolfram's book that could
be quoted. The entire chapter is very interesting, but it does not persuade
me that Scandinavian tribes played a part in the ethnigenesis of the Gutones!
Ingemar's book deals more eloquently with the subject than does Wolfram's.

Best,
Oskar






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