[gothic-l] Re: The Formation of the Goths

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Oskar Andersson" <o.andersson at g...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > > "From this island of Scandza, as from a factory of tribes
> > > or a wom of peoples...the Goths are said to have migrated
> > > long ago under their king Berig. As soon as they had dis-
> > > embarked from their ships and had set foot on land, they
> > > gave the place a name; for even today it is said to be
> > > called Gothiscandza. From there they soon advanced
> > > against the settlements of the Ulmerugi, who at that
> > > time lived on the shores of the sea, made war upon
> > > them, engaged in a battle, and drove them from the land.
> > > At that time they subjugated their neighbors, the Vandals,
> > > and by their victories forced the to jin the Gothic rule...
> > >
> > > This is the beginning of the memoria, the Amal tribal
> > > history of the Goths, which Cassiodorus recorded and
> > > which Jordanes preserved for posterity. As late as the
> > > sixth century Theoderic the Great insisted that his family
> > > had originated in Scandinavia and had made the long
> > > trek from there by way of eastern Pomerania and the
> > > Vistula to the Black Sea, thence to Pannonia and Moesia,
> > > and finally to Italy. In view of the enormous energy that
> > > scholarship has invested in defending or refuting the
> > > Scandinavian origin of the Goths, one could ask why
> > > we do not believe Theoderic and accept his claim - of
> > > course not as hard fact but as motif of a saga..."
> > >
> > > When rereading the above section of Chapter 2 of Wolfram
> > > (1988) I was struck by the similarity of the middle ground
> > > taken by Professor Wolfram similar to that of Professor
> > > Hermodsson in _Goterna_.
> > >
> > > Gothically
> > >
> > > Bertil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is one of your main problems. You just take a passage, which
you
> > like, out of context from any source or book and present it
as 'the'
> > opinion of an authorative author. You should read Wolfram's
section
> > on 'origo and religio' (I think that is how it is called. I
provide
> > the reference tomorrow) to get a full and correct understanding
of
> > his views in this matter. He states that there was no migration
of a
> > Gothic tribe or people from Scandinavia, but helds that some
> > traditions of the Goths were linked to Scandinavia.
> >
> > Dirk
>
> Although risking to rip smth out of its context, here is what
Wolfram
> says on p. 39 and 40 in the "New and completely revised
> from the second German edition" - History of the Goths.
>
> "Does this mean, after all, that the Goths originated in
Scandinavia?
> Reinhard Wenskus has already given an answer, which ought to be
> slightly modified: not entire peoples but small successful clans,
the
> bearers of prestigious traditions, emigrated and became the
founders of
> new gentes. In this sense it is possible that a group of Gutae,
which the
> Gothic memoria identified with King Berig and his followers, left
Scandinavia
> long before the Amali and contributed to the ethnogenesis of the
Gutones in
> East Pomerania-Masovia."
>
> There are many passages of this chapter in Wolfram's book that
could
> be quoted. The entire chapter is very interesting, but it does not
persuade
> me that Scandinavian tribes played a part in the ethnigenesis of
the Gutones!
> Ingemar's book deals more eloquently with the subject than does
Wolfram's.
>
> Best,
> Oskar


Hi Oskar,

I think that reflects Wolfram's view quite accurately. I think
Wolfram's view is an attempt to reconcile the hypothesis that parts
of the Getica reflect genuine tribal memory with the fact that modern
archaeology rules out any signifcant cultural influence from
Scandinavia on the Wielbark culture. Thus, the concept of 'elite-
migration' seems to provide a convenient solution. However,
archaeological interpretations of social developments during this
period are highly critical of this concept in this case as well.
Thus, Walter Pohl and also Rolf Hachmann seem to go a step further,
saying that a tradition as well as names can be transfered without
the movement any people; also contact will likely have been bilateral.

cheers,
Dirk





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