[gothic-l] OK
Lada
smntpk at PTT.YU
Wed Mar 13 20:09:38 UTC 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Mark Carey <smcarey at artsci.wustl.edu>
To: <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 5:06 PM
Subject: [gothic-l] POST EDITING
> You are ofcourse correct, I should write at the top, but i lke to keep an
eye on what others wrote.
I am not saying either that there is no Wielbark culture nor that Poles
originated in Scandinavia. What I AM saying is that the Wielbark culture is
an archaeological culture, not a nation in modern sense. I am sure Goths
did not share a sense of national unity, else they would not be fighting
each other on Catalaunian filds. But it is a culture of 1st to 4th centurie
BC, and germanic tribes were already on move, perhaps not alone, at least
those who invaded Gaul and provoked Caesars conquest. And at that time or
somewhat later Goths might have come in contact with Slavic speaking
population and left their mark.
About the truth, theere certainly is a truth, but no one can be sure
what it is. That is what science does, provides the most plausible
explanations, most plausible interpretations on traces we have.
Il Akkad
> Friendly request
>
> Try to not include the last previous ten or twenty posts -- and ALWAYS --
> put what you are adding new at the VERY TOP -- or if you must repsond
> interlineary -- keep it to a minimun -- it just that I want to following
> the argument with out going blind trying to find the new posts ---
> thanks
>
> Stephen Mark Carey, Ph.D.
> Department of German Studies
> 117 Trimble Hall
> Emory University
> Atlanta, GA 30322
> (404) 727 0820
>
> On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Lada wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: faltin2001 <dirk at smra.co.uk>
> > To: <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 1:07 PM
> > Subject: [gothic-l] Re: The Gothic Migration Epic
> >
> >
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > > > There most certainly is no truth in the matter
> > > > of the Gothic peoples origin.
> > >
> > >
> > > Of course there is a truth and it is the task of science, and
> > > especially archaeology to uncover this truth. If there were no truth,
> > > scientists could not work on this subject!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It so happens
> > > > I know something about the preparations
> > > > for the ZDF TV-series and leading scholars
> > > > on Gothic history were consulted.
> > >
> > >
> > > One would hope that this is the case, Peter Arens, the author of the
> > > programme and the accompanying book is after all 'only' a journalist
> > > and head of 'history and society' at Germany's ZDF TV station. Such
> > > programmes and books have obvious constraints and limitations. They
> > > have to appeal to a broad audience. They are usually less strict with
> > > scientific standards and more open to speculation and prone to
> > > outright mistakes.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It is basically one person who is promoting
> > > > the "truth line" while others are continuing
> > > > to offer the more realistic line of a more
> > > > drawn out migration from Scandinavia of
> > > > smaller groups.
> > >
> > >
> > > Who are those scholars who are disputing the findings of 50 years of
> > > archaeological research on the Goths and Wielbark culture? Can you
> > > provide the names and their publications, in which they make those
> > > claims.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The old image of mass
> > > > migration has changed but the new history
> > > > of Gothic emigration from Scandinavia is
> > > > certainly not that of a Polish origin in
> > > > Gothiscandza.
> > >
> > >
> > > It certainly is. For the 1000th time, the Wielbark and Oksywie
> > > cultures are authochonous they did not come from anywhere else. There
> > > was neither a mass migration nor a protracted migration, but there
> > > has been spuradic contact. But the fact remains the Wielbark culture
> > > of the Goths is authochonous and its closests relatives live south of
> > > it. This is a fact that all serious archaeologists accept and confirm.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I guess "Storm over Europe" is the final straw
> > > > for the view that the Scandinavian origin is
> > > > only presented by older Scandinavian scholars.
> > > > The Scandinavian migration saga of the Goths
> > > > and the Gepids is now presented on best
> > > > TV-time all over Europe supported by a 400
> > > > pages volume with scholarly comment.
> > > >
> > > > The turning point came in 2002. Sure, a few
> > > > archaelogists here and there will continue
> > > > to produce material that few people outside
> > > > the academic community read.
> > >
> > >
> > > As several other members on this list have pointed out repeatedly
> > > you really are a wonder of stubborness and blindness to scientific
> > > research and facts. The fact that a mistake or outdated theory is
> > > repeated in mass media does not make it right. You clearly have never
> > > read the relevant literature. With your last sentence you show that
> > > you don't care about the findings of academics as long as the
> > > old 'mis-interpretations' are circulated. You even resort to your
> > > standard practice of 'belittling' everybody who contradicts your
> > > view.
> > >
> > > You should by now have realised that you have not a hint of
> > > credibility left on this list. Virtually any topic on this list was
> > > hijacked by you and ultimately drowned with this age old Scandinavian
> > > Gothicism. Note, that the people who are the subject of this list,
> > > i.e. the Goths of the Vistual, Black Sea region, the Balkan, Italy
> > > and Spain have practically nothing to do with Scandinavia. Yet, we
> > > constantly debate the supposed origin of the Goths from Scandinavia
> > > and what is more you have not even read the relevant literature to be
> > > able to engage in such a debate.
> > >
> > > We all make mistakes from time to time, which should not be a
> > > problem, but for the sake of this discussion forum I would urge you
> > > to practice some sort of self-constraint, otherwise you damage this
> > > list beyond repair.
> > >
> > > Dirk
> > >
> > >
> > > I cannot but add that science is now discarding the theories of
invasions
> > and is turning to synthesis theory (as in the case of celtic expansion)
. So
> > we should think of certain archaelogical cultures as cultures, not
peoples.
> > It is plausible that a part of a nation would come into the sphere of
> > influence of one culture and other parts not. Besides, how can you tell
that
> > Goths began their migrations as a single people and not as a
confederacy,
> > the latter being tur of Anglo - Saxons, Franks and probably Vandals.
> > I guess that all of the theses mentioned in this discussion do
> > contain a part of the truth, and the dogmatism shown by some will not
lead
> > us to it.
> > Il Akkad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
email
> > to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Access Your PC from Anywhere
Full setup in 2 minutes! - Free Download
http://us.click.yahoo.com/MxtVhB/2XkDAA/_ZuFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
More information about the Gothic-l
mailing list