[gothic-l] Re: Wielbark/Goto-Gepidic culture

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Hails Dirk !

>Hachmann (1970) has a very ambivalent position. On the one hand, his
>arachaeological investigation shows that the Wielbark culture is not
>related with Scandinavian cultures. He thus confirms the finding made
>by Polish archaeologists, but he also believes in a connection
>between Goths and Scandinavia.
>

The fact that Gotic graves contained no swords could have
several explanations. For instance that they had settled in
a very dangerous spot, and could not afford to bury their swords.

I also think it is difficult to have a good overview
of archaeological material. The archaeologist who themselves
participate in digs are the best qualified, because the *see*
the material as it emerges fresh from the earth.
Thus the archaeologists who worked a hundred years ago,
when a few archaeologists were involved in very many finds,
probably had the best overview, and it is difficult for
those who came after them to achieve the same total overview,
because they have to learn everything from "shopping lists",
which is not the same thing. (catalogues)


For this reason I am a bit hesitant to accept generalizing
statements of the kind we have seen. Of course, when you
arrive in a new country you have access to different merchandise
and that will affect the archaeological remains.




might have immigrated in
>Scandinavia
>> from somewhere during Neolitic time or early Bronze Age because the
>> original population up here seem to have been Saami or  related
>peoples.

Ingemar, are you quite sure about this ?
I have read accounts of Norwegian pre-history that contradicts
this view. From what I read, it seems as if there were groups
that migrated along the coast towards the North. Then there
were other peoples who migrated from way up North, also along
the coast, and they are supposed to have come from the Kola
peninsula. The latter are supposed to have been related to the
present day Saami.

Another question is the Finnish language group. Because the
Saami are supposed to have changed their language at one point
in their early history many thousand years ago, and adopted
their present language from the Finns, who were their neighbors
at the time.


>As I said earlier, this was a rethorical question.
>
>
>Overall, I stick to what Andreas said earlier, namely that the East
>Germanic people of the Goths originate from the area of the Wielbark
>culture in modern northern Poland. The Wielbark culture is
>autochtonous, just as its predecessor the Oksywie culture, which does
>not exclude outside influence. In fact, at times this influence
>might have been significant on a non-material level.
>
>At any rate the migration will have changed the Goths fundamentally.
>The Goths of the Black Sea area were in my view a very different kind
>of people from the Goths at the Vistula. The gradual movement of
>Suebian tribes into modern south-west Germany might be a good
>example. They started out as distinct and in some cases highly
>esteemed tribes, yet after their migration, they are a conglomerate
>of many peoples and groups, which is reflected in their name
>Alamanni. The Goths kept the name, but they were probably just as
>much a new and changed conglomerate of peoples when they arrived at
>the Black Sea.

When you say *probably* in what you write above, does it mean
that you have access to a systematic way of evaluating such
probabilities?

Of course, by the laws of statistical mixing, your statement
would tend to be true. But the real question is of course how
large this effect may have been. It certainly wasn't larger
than that they were able to maintain their language quite well
over a period of around 5 centuries. To me this indicates that
the picture you paint is misleading.



>The archaeologists that I read say that it developed from the Okcywie
>culture, meaning that it is autochtonous. BTW, you mis-typed the word
>as Keth will surely point out later;-)

I already did.  I felt quite bewildered by your original spelling.

Cheers
Keth



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