[gothic-l] Re: Wielbark/Goto-Gepidic culture

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
> Hails Dirk !
>
> >Hachmann (1970) has a very ambivalent position. On the one hand,
his
> >arachaeological investigation shows that the Wielbark culture is
not
> >related with Scandinavian cultures. He thus confirms the finding
made
> >by Polish archaeologists, but he also believes in a connection
> >between Goths and Scandinavia.
> >
>
> The fact that Gotic graves contained no swords could have
> several explanations. For instance that they had settled in
> a very dangerous spot, and could not afford to bury their swords.



Hi Keth,

that is possible, but not likely. The lack of weapons as grave goods
is a striking characteristic of the Wielbark culture and the later
Chernyakhovsk culture. In that the Goths (and others in that group)
were remarkably conservative, and authors like Wolfram and others
conclude that this must reflect a different belief about the
afterlife.



>
> I also think it is difficult to have a good overview
> of archaeological material. The archaeologist who themselves
> participate in digs are the best qualified, because the *see*
> the material as it emerges fresh from the earth.
> Thus the archaeologists who worked a hundred years ago,
> when a few archaeologists were involved in very many finds,
> probably had the best overview, and it is difficult for
> those who came after them to achieve the same total overview,
> because they have to learn everything from "shopping lists",
> which is not the same thing. (catalogues)



Well, if you read the article by Blischke (op. cit.) you will see
that the vast majority of archaeological material concerning the
Wielbark culture was excavated in the past 30 and 40 years, i.e. the
period which let archaeologists to abandon the theory of a
Scandinavian migration! Thus, to say that the archaeologists 100
years ago had a better overview is simply wrong and reflects the fact
that you did not read the more recent literature.




>
>
> For this reason I am a bit hesitant to accept generalizing
> statements of the kind we have seen. Of course, when you
> arrive in a new country you have access to different merchandise
> and that will affect the archaeological remains.



Archaeological techniques are nowadays more refined then you think.


(material about Finns and Norwegians snipped)



> >At any rate the migration will have changed the Goths
fundamentally.
> >The Goths of the Black Sea area were in my view a very different
kind
> >of people from the Goths at the Vistula. The gradual movement of
> >Suebian tribes into modern south-west Germany might be a good
> >example. They started out as distinct and in some cases highly
> >esteemed tribes, yet after their migration, they are a
conglomerate
> >of many peoples and groups, which is reflected in their name
> >Alamanni. The Goths kept the name, but they were probably just as
> >much a new and changed conglomerate of peoples when they arrived
at
> >the Black Sea.
>
> When you say *probably* in what you write above, does it mean
> that you have access to a systematic way of evaluating such
> probabilities?


How can I have a systematic way of evaluating probabilities in such a
situation???? When I write 'probably' it just means that I am not
certain, but fairly convinced.



>
> Of course, by the laws of statistical mixing, your statement
> would tend to be true. But the real question is of course how
> large this effect may have been. It certainly wasn't larger
> than that they were able to maintain their language quite well
> over a period of around 5 centuries. To me this indicates that
> the picture you paint is misleading.


Well, the Suevi probably also maintained their language quite well,
also other groups like Anglo-Saxons. Nevertheless, I am really only
presenting what I see is the mainstream position. Since I am not a
historian and not an archaeologists I simply tend to adopt the latest
views of the most respectable authors. (this excludes popular TV
programmes;->)

Please try to see the benefit in that. If I would not present this
view, this list would be mainly about proto-Viking Scandinavian
Goths, who -while always keeping in touch with the Scandinavian
homeland- brought down Rome; not only with brute force but also with
moral and ethic superiority. On the way of their glorious trail
through Europe they of course invented the runes and Odin and
consortes, which they passed on to their Scandinavian brethren, who
are at any rate the true heirs of the Goths:-))))) I am humourously
exaggerating!

cheers,
Dirk


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