[gothic-l] Re: Wielbark/Goto-Gepidic culture

[Lada]

----- Original Message -----
From: Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren at ebox.tninet.se>
To: <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:38 AM
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Wielbark/Goto-Gepidic culture


>
 Ingemar,
   Could you plese tell me what you mean by saying there was a change from
Celtic to Germanic. Did you mean Celtic developed into Germanic,or that
Celtic was pushed out by Germanic?
               thank you
                                   Il Akkad


Dear Dirk,
>
> I know this down was meant for Tore but I could not resist to comment.
> I know you always are very confident of your own knowledge and I must
> admit that you know a lot. Admirably much I must say and for that I
> respect you highly. Still, my friend, there is no way being so sure for
> facts, that you mostly seem to be. I think no scholar ever could be
> quite sure of anything, but as most be able to point to a high degree of
> probability for being right, concerning the time-span we are here
> discussing.
>
> You say Wielbark is autoochtonous  meaning you say it formed locally.
> Well,I am not disputing it's local formation but the parts from which it
> formed. There are indeed changes even inside the Wielbark-culture and
> local differences between different parts of the culture. These include
> elements traceable to Scandinavia for instance. Peter Heather regarded
> the Wielbark culture as a great cultic league and saw a lot of different
> elements in there of different origin. Accordingly there might have been
> a number of more or less related tribes living there in unity but
> originally coming from different areas. Any culture must be put together
> by something - it not just starts right up and down but develope for a
> long time and all the time accepting influences and people from around.
> The later Gepidic culture examined by Jerzy Ockulicz-Kozaryn was in any
> way multi-ochtonous showing clearly outside elements  forming new
> rituals, reusing old  cemetaries et c. This was a late and evident
> thing, but for the Wielbark/Goto-Gepidic/Burgundian culture (pick your
> choice) in whole this must have been a long process and of course have
> included elements from the Okshöfde/Oksywie-culture. A gradual
> Scandinavian immigration during a half millenium,  mixing up with this
> culture, would not show that much archaeologically because some local
> habits and  material was of course accepted also by newcomers but there
> still is a striking similarity between Westscandinavian burial customs
> and Wielbark about BC and slightly later, and  between Eastscandinavian
> and Wielbark from c:a 300 BC. The integration theory mentioned by, I
> think Pohl, in this case sounds very interesting. If you stop regarding
> Goths just as a people or a uniform archaeological culture and see them
> as several peoples united by a common religious heritage, as I do in my
> dissertation, this would explain that there is hard to find early
> artefacts of uniform type. Such occur first in larger scale when these
> different small groups-tribes start forming a common culture like in
> e.g. Cernjachov. Still the early graves can indicate a possible
> religious, and hence Scandinavian, connection in spite of Volker
> Bierbrauers et consortes opinion. The most part of Scandinavian
> influence is, as I see it, the religious origin and the actual number of
> Scandinavians might not have been so great to be able to settle these
> traditions and form a certain position of power of at least part of the
> area. This could well explain Ablabius reference to Berig and
> Scandinavia. Still the remaining Scandinavian peoples like Jutar, Gutar
> and Gauts also are Goths even if they did never live in the
> Vistula/Weichsel region. This is also Hachmanns opinion. The contacts
> between these groups all the time remained, to judge by archaeological
> finds, and I am convinced people from these folks  took part in the
> Gothic campaigns. The question of  the Gothic language contra
> Scandinavian languages is of subordinate significance because Gothic was
> not influenced by the first language shift and hence must originate from
> before the first possible emigration about 350-300 BC, when
> East-Scandinavian burial customs match areas in the Vistula/Weichsel
> region. This means the languages developed in different directions from
> around BC and locally on the Continent the old language remained. It
> means Scandinavians coming later accepted the majority language, which
> was essential to be able to communicate in an already established
> culture. Communication was important to be able to take control of
> leading positions e.g. About the Scandinavian languages we do however
> not know for sure that they changed in own directions before 150 AD when
> Ptolemaios indicates it by using the form 'Goutai'.
>
> About the heritage of the present Scandinavian population, which you
> asked about, I would presume they might have immigrated in Scandinavia
> from somewhere during Neolitic time or early Bronze Age because the
> original population up here seem to have been Saami or  related peoples.
> There are indications of among else "Celtic" influence during Bronze Age
> if you look to the rock-carvings. I do not suggest I know  the state of
> language then, but it could have been kind of transformation from Celtic
> to Germanic language during the late Bronze Age till the Early Pre-Roman
>   Iron Age.
>
> Best wishes
> Ingemar
>
>
>
>
>
> Dirk wrote:
>
> "there is no such thing as 'authochonous for a certain number of
> centuries, than originated from somewhere else'. Authochonous for the
> Wielbark and for the preceeding Okcywie culture means that they did
> not come from anywhere, but developed locally in the area of modern
> Pommerania and Silesia...."
>
> "Where do you think the Scandinavians, say the modern Swedes or
> Gotlanders originally came from?"
>
> Dirk
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______
>
>
>
>
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>
>




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