[gothic-l] Gothic Religion in 500BC?

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "ingemarn2000" <ingemar.nordgren at e...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren at e...>
wrote:
> > >
> Dirk wrote:
>
> > His findings are confirmed by a number of other archaeologists
and
> > based on the findings of earlier researchers, as was shown by
> > Blischke. In fact, there is a common agreement among
archaeologists
> > and most historians, which sees the origin of the Goths in the
> > autochtonous Wielbark culture.
>
> I am  not sure e.g. Koklowski agrees in all points. Besides I agree,
> as stated, that the Gothic concept as a kind of tribe with the name
> Gutones/Gudones in Weichsel-area emerged in the Wielbark culture but
> Goths in the religious sense, according to my interpretation,
started
> to develop all over the Scandinavia and Northgermania - note not
> Germany - already about 500 BC.



Dear Ingemar,

as Andreas told us, Kokowski also agrees that the Goths emerged from
the autochtonous Wielbark culture.

I find 500BC for an emergence of 'Goths in a religious sense' far too
early. Note, around 0 AD, the Oksywie/Wielbark culture had gone
through its most significant and determining changes. Thus, at this
time the Oksywie people had stopped the custom of weapons burials,
switched from cremation to inhumation and buried women with more
grave goods then men. Combined with other changes these are defining
elements of the Wielbark culture. If we can equate at least a part of
the Wielbark culture with the Gutones/Goths, we must assume that
fundamental and defining religious changes have occured during that
period. As Bierbrauer, but also earlier Nowakowski and Okulicz
confirm, during this period there is no Scandinavian influenced
detectable. Thus, this let to the widely accepted premisis that
the 'Gothic' Wielbark culture is autochtonous and not transplanted
from another area. If there was a Gothic religion 500BC then the
Goths of the Wielbark culture made something of a break from it
around 0 AD. But as I said, I think there was no Gothic religion in
500BC

BTW, Jerzy Okulicz also writes in 'Studia nad przemianami
kultorowymi ....' in Archeologia Polski, 1970 that the Oksywie and
Wielbark culture are derived from the Jastorf culture! Can you
imagine who some German Gothomanes have rejoiced;-> Yet, Bierbrauer
and others have demonstrated that this is simply wrong, just as his
findings about a 'blitz-akkulturation', i.e. Goths arriving from
Scandinavia and immediately adopting local dress and custom.


cheers,
Dirk














>
>
>  Concerning the Gothic language it  never  went> > trough the first
> shift as far as I know but it differed of course > from> >
> Protogermanic if that is what you mean.
>
> > I thought that the first sound-shift created Germanic. Are we
talking
> > about different things?
>
> Yes, obviously, since I meant the shift from Protogermanic -
> Urgermanisch - till the division in different Germanic language
> groups. I.e. in this case the division between North Germanic and
East
> Germanic.
>
>
> Kindly
> Ingemar


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