[gothic-l] Gothic Religious Ancestry

[Ingemar Nordgren]

Yurij Knysch wrote:

".... It would therefore appear that a somewhat complex
ethno-political process was underway in northern
Poland after ca. 50 AD. The original Vandalic Goths
were progressively absorbed into the Wielbark culture
where they co-existed with the descendants of early
Wielbark (Venedi) and with Scandinavian newcomers. The
resulting community of peoples retained the name
"Goths" as an umbrella appellative. One can speculate
about the reasons for this: perhaps the Scandinavian
intruders (the new ruling class acc. to our later
sources) were also called "Goths" or variants thereof;
or possibly the powerful kingship of the community had
its territorial center among the Goths of the west
rather than among the Venedi of the north and east.
And all this already before phases D-F.

4. Obviously this is a very rough sketch which
requires polishing and emendation. The key point is
that if the original Goths were a Vandalic people of
the Przeworsk culture,then we must ask under what
conditions the term "Goth" became associated with
them.

Greetings Yurij!


The first concrete information of Goths	emanate from about BC. The first one
mentioning them is Strabo writing about Boutones and who are connected
with Marbod (Strabo, Geogr. IV, 1, 3). Zeuss proposed the reading
Goutones (Zeuss 1837, s.134) and it is since that generally accepted. It
is written after the victory of Germanicus year 16 AD but probably
before the  flight of Marbod because this happening is not mentioned.
Plinius writes 79 AD   of Guiones or Gotones and  also  refers to
Pytheas who is supposed to have known of the Goths in connection with
the amber trade. This is however by Hachmann and some other regarded as
an misunderstanding, so there is accordingly several opinions of that.
He regards the Goths as part of the Vandili and they are mentioned
together with Burgundians, Varines and Charines (Hist.Nat.14). His
geographic information is vague in the Eastern part of Middle Europe.
Tacitus writes 98 AD about the Goths as allies of Catualda in his fight
against Marbod. He calls them Gotones. About their  settlements he
writes: "Trans Lugio Gotones regnantur, . . . Protinus deinde ab Oceano
Rugii et Lemovii, . . "( Germania 44). Accordingly he beleives they live
North or Northeast of the Lugii and further into the mainland than
Rugii, Lemovii, Aesti and Sithones who he explicitly says live at the
Sea. Close to the Lugii (later Vandili) he mentions Helvecones which he
regards as part of the Lugii. These Helvecones Ptolemaios calls Ailouaiones.

We are accordingly dealing with the area around the lower
Vistula/Weichsel and it's outflow in the Baltic. He does not mention the
river but he sees a border in the East between the Germanics, which he
counts to the Suebi, and the Sarmatians in that area he calls Sarmatia.
He does not know wether he shall include Peucini, Venethi and Fenni with
the Germanics or the Sarmatians.(Germania 46)

Ptolemaios mentiones c:a 150 Gudones  but not in the same location as
Tacitus did. Beyond Weichsel he gives Ouenedichos Kolpos, South of these
at Vistula/Weichsel Gudones. At the coast he mentions Seidinoi
(Sithones), Rougichleioi (Rugii), Ouenedai (Venethi), Ailouaiones
(Helvecones? Aesti?) and Bourgountes( Burgundii). Further in the land
along the Western side of Vistula/Weichsel and it's upper part are
mentioned Lougoi (Lugii). Ptolemaios also mentions Goutai and Guti
(Gautar, Gutar,) as living on the island Scandia (Ptolemaios II, 11. 16).

If these sources are trustworthy we can  conclude the name of Goths or
variants has been recognized in the area since the 3rd c. BC. If Pytheas
is counted out Strabo is the first source. If he knows of them about 16
AD they must have a considerably longer history on the continent and so
  I reckon at least during the 1st c.BC the developement ought to have
started and preferably still earlier.
We also note the Goths are mentioned by Tacitus to live North of the
Lugii wich is  at the Weichsel/Vistula.
Hence  we do in fact not know exact where they lived or they preferably
were spread over a bigger surface. We also can conclude that it is
probable the formation  of the Goths took some time and that several
tribes were part of that formation. Heathers sense of a cultic league
seems  more and more convincing.

The real trigger however can have been the late Scandinavian influence
during the 1st c.BC and the 1 c.AD even if there probably already were
Scandinavians present before.

You, Yurij,  propose a Vandilic connection and so does Herwig Wolfram. I
agree to a certain extent. Wolfram sees a cultic league between Vandili
and Goths but I rather see kind of political dependance during an inital
period. In one way however I can agree with Wolfram. They probably have
a common cultic background in part even if the Vandili not have a
teophoric name. My Ring name survey, published in Migracijske Teme 1-2,
Zagreb 2000, indicates a relationship between Goths, Burgundians and
Vandili pointing towards a common Scandinavian background. Dirks
proposal the warrior kings and the Gefolgschaft should come out of
direct Celtic influence via the Vandili I do not buy. Gefolgschaften is
  a common Germanic thing and the  title 'reiks' is a title applied by
the Romans/Wulfila and not by the Goths themselves. Their
tribes/petty-kingdoms in Dacia were named Kunja or Kuni and from that
the old form for king, kuningaz, is easily derived.
I would say you regard this with an open mind, and I think his mixture
might well provide an opening. Also I would recommend to re-consider
Ernst Scwarz' idéas of a Gothic commonship around the Baltic regardless
if there was a Gotho-Nordic language or not. The tribal main god Gaut in
any case is of Scandinavic origin, considering that all peoples that
claim him as creator, or have him as head of their royal genealogies,
are provenly coming from the Scandinavian surroundings - or claim to do so.

Best regards
Ingemar



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