[gothic-l] The early Goths

[george knysh]

Hello Dirk,
Your response was so lengthy (when added to my already
lengthy item) that Yahoo truncated it in the reply. So
I'll have to start another message.

You wrote:

 *****GK: My problem here is that I see no room for
the
> Goths of Strabo, Tacitus' Annals, and Pliny in the
> early Wielbark culture area. Strabo does not know
(and
> admits this) the identity of the peoples on the
coast.
> I suppose one might try to argue that the Goths were
> located along the Vistula but significantly removed
> from the coastline. This would make their territory
> quite tiny. Not absolutely impossible, but
improbable.


(DF)I don't see why. Hachmann identifies such a
territory at the east
back of the Vistula away from the coast.

*****GK: Two problems. (a) Our written sources locate
the earliest Goths WEST of the Vistula. (b) Earliest
Wielbark EAST of the Vistula and away from the
coastline gives one a territory approx. 35 kilometers
long and 16 kilometers wide. As stated above that is
"quite tiny". Cf. Fig. 4 in Kaliff,(2001) p. 27.******

(DF):"An adoption of strong central kingship in
general from the Celts is
argued by most archaeologists working in this field.
Archaeology
shows that a more stratified social organisation
spread from south to
north. See for instance Heiko Steuer. The Marcomanni
are the first
Germanic people to adopt a strong kingship under a
Celticised elite
(All names of Marcomannic kings are Celtic) and this
process was
probably in development during the times of Ariovistus
(who also bore
a Celtic name) and his Suebian followings."

*****GK: I don't doubt this. But the fact remains that
the Gothic kingship was peculiarly strong, as noted by
Tacitus. So other factors must have been at work here.
The Germanic components of the "Goths" may well have
started with "reiks" added to "kunigaz". But then came
their "thiudans", which has no parallel in
contemporary Germanic organization or nomenclature. I
don't see how that derives either from Celtic or
Celticised Germanic influence.*******





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Access Your PC from Anywhere
Check Email & Transfer files - Free Download
http://us.click.yahoo.com/NxtVhB/3XkDAA/_ZuFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/