[gothic-l] Re: Digest Number 538

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren at e...> wrote:
> Hello Dirk,
>
> you wrote:
>
>
>
> > If he knows of them about 16 AD they must have a considerably
longer history on the continent
> >> and so > >> I reckon at least during the 1st c.BC the
developement ought to
> > > have > >> started and preferably still earlier.
> >
> > That is practically impossible to assume. The emergence or
formation
> > of the Goths can under no circumstances be dated earlier than
50BC,
> > based on historical and archaeological sources.
>
>
> I would like to be so confident about what happened that long time
ago
> and without written sources. Archaeology is a science that depends
on
> interpretation and also upon methods who  decide how to interpret.
In
> other words it is rather subjective in spite of the presumed
> objectivity. I agree it is hard to prove anything beyond doubt  but
a
> culture like Goths do not grow instantly up of the ground - it
takes
> some time - and the autoochtonuosness is in no way definitely
proven. I
> know you will disagree  but so what - the opinion is free.




Of course the opinion is free, but it should be backed with some
evidence or sources. All archaeologists agree on the fact that
Oksywie and Wielbark are authochtonous cultures and I have no means
to back up any objection to that.


>
>
>
>
> >> We also note the Goths are mentioned by Tacitus to live North of
> > > the > >> Lugii wich is  at the Weichsel/Vistula.>> Hence  we do
in fact not know exact where they lived or they
> > > preferably >>> were spread over a bigger surface. We also can
conclude that it is
> >> probable the formation  of the Goths took some time and that > >
several
> > >> tribes were part of that formation. Heathers sense of a
cultic> > league
> > >> seems  more and more convincing.
> >> >> The real trigger however can have been the late
Scandinavian>>influence
> > >> during the 1st c.BC and the 1 c.AD even if there probably
already >> were
> > >> Scandinavians present before.
>
>
>
>  The key things to > remember are the Oksywie and Wielbark cultures
were autochtonous and
> > thus developed without significant imports from other cultures.
> > Scandinavian influence is very spuradically only possible at the
end
> > of the first century AD.
>
>
> See above.
>
>
>  Dirks >> proposal the warrior kings and the Gefolgschaft should
come out of
> >> direct Celtic influence via the Vandili I do not buy.
>
> > The fact that the Germanic 'Gefolgschaftssystem' was adopted from
the
> > Celts is widely held and not contested at all. In general, this
is
> > reflected in innovation in the material culture, i.e. the spread
> > of 'princely graves' and 'weapon graves' etc. which all originate
> > from Celtic areas.
>
>
> I wrote Vandili instead of Marcomanni wich you had not stated.
Sorry of
> that. Still I wrote "direct" in this special case. I have not
contested
> there is a connection in many things with Celtic tradition for the
> Germanics but I do not beleive this was the new thing just the
Goths
> discovered in the Marcomannic war.
>



The Marcomannic war was in about 160 to 180AD. I am talking about
contacts and influences during the formative years of the Wielbark
culture (i.e. the last decades BC)!.




>
>  Are you sure that the name 'reiks' was not used by the Goths? It
did
> > seemed to have entered their personal names (endings in -ric)
quite
> > strongly, which leads me to suspect that it was long before the
time
> > of Wulfila adopted into Gothic.
>
>
> In lack of historical written sources in other languages than
Latin,
> Greek and Wulfilean writing I am of course not sure  but fairly
> convinced with respect to the use of kunja/kuni for the petty-
kingdoms.



I have no problem with that, yet I still think that the term reiks
was used in Gothic/East Germanic from very early on, which is
indicated by the fact that it was so widely used in personal names.

cheers,
Dirk


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