[gothic-l] Greutung, Terving, Rus

[george knysh]

--- åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov at ipiran.ru> wrote:
 (By the way, why George
> decided rosomoni by Jordan were Alanic?

****GK: I'm not the only one of course. Vernadsky has
suggested that "Rosomoni" can easily be etymologized
from the Ossetic, and Maenchen-Helfen also point to
the Alans. The most recent state of the art book on
the Goths in Ukraine (Mahomedov's study of the
Chernyakhiv culture) points out that Scytho-Sarmatians
dominated the southern areas of the Gothic realm in
the 4th c. even though politically subject. They are
to my mind the local aristocracy, part of which went
over to the Huns.****

 The same
> story with the same personages is represented in
> Hamdir Saga but as if from "another side", and this
> "another side" is explicitly Scandinavian!)

*****GK: That is well known. But the basic story
initially appears in Jordanes.*****
>
> Continuing polemics with George, I'd like to correct
> his obviously erroneous affirmation:
>
> "The first state ("knyazhenie") on contemporary
> Russian territory was that of the Slovenes (in the
> area of later Novgorod), and this is clearly stated
> in the Primary Chronicle".

******GK: I apologize for any possible ambiguity. I
actually meant the first state on territory associated
with the historical emergence and development of the
Russian people, not with the territory currently
englobed within the boundaries of the Russian
Republic. I realize that some will not agree with me,
thinking that the Novgorodian Slovenes were not
Russian (pre- or proto-) but a distinct Slavic people
which was absorbed by the Russians in the 16th c.
These are difficult issues.*****
>
> The first known state on contemporary Russian
> territory was Bospor Kingdom (since VI century
> B.C.).

*****GK: The Bosporus Kingdom was not formed until 480
BC. It straddled portions of contemporary Ukraine and
contemporary Russia, but had little to do with the
emergence and development of either Ukrainians or
Russians.*****

 The second known state was Hermanaric's
> Empire (by Jordan) in IV c. A.D.

******GK: There is serious doubt about the extent of
this "Empire". I personally don't believe that it
controlled much if anything of the territory of
contemporary Russia.****

 Then there were
> Western Turkic Khanate, Bulgar Khanate, Khazar
> Khanate, Hungar Khanate, and so on and so forth. Of
> course, it's only a joke. Not to mention that all of
> them weren't "knyazhenie".
>
> As a matter of fact, history of formation of Russian
> state remains obscure. Even Russian historians don't
> take seriously at present the so-called Primary
> Chronicle referred to by George.

******GK: I'm not too surprised. There's not that much
in that Chronicle that can easily be appropriated by
Russia after 1991 (:=)))******

 It is worthy of
> trust not more than Scandinavian sagas. The first
> "knyazhenie" reliably proved by narrative sources
> and archaeological data was Kiev's Rus' at the end
> of X century ruled by Vladimir I (St Vladimir).

*****GK: Not the first, not Russian, and not Vladimir
either (the correct historical name for him  is
Volodimer)
>
> Also Vladimir (but not a governor)

*****GK: Anyway, I'd be more interested in what you
have to say about the Goths and Rus'. Save the other
theories for some other list unless they are relevant
to the Gothic issue.******


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