[gothic-l] Re: Digest Number 650

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren at e...> wrote:
> >  Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 04:14:47 -0000
> >    From: "konrad_oddsson" <konrad_oddsson at y...>
> > Dear Konrad, 
> 
> 
> You wrote:
> 
>   
> > Greetings my fellow students!
> 
> ... 
> > I am as yet undecided in these matters. There are certainly 
parallel 
> > forms in a number of alphabets. Given that the "viking" age Goths 
in 
> > Scandinavia attributed the origin of the runes to Óðinn/Wóðins, I 
> > think it highly likely that their migrant cousins in the south 
did 
> > likewise. Nevertheless, religion and alphabetic history are two 
> > different things. Given the distribution and period of the extant 
> > inscriptions in the older form of the futhark, however, it seems 
> > highly likely that some migrating Scandinavian group/groups had 
> > something to do with the alphabet´s adoption. The fact that runic 
> > inscriptions later became a phenomenon almost exclusively 
peculiar 
> > to Scandinavia proper also suggests that the older alphabet was 
> > somehow closely connected to one or more Scandinavian groups 
abroad.
> > The alphabet could also have originated in Scandinavia. Such an 
> > origination would, however, suggest that some group/groups from 
> > abroad travelled to Scandinavia for trade purposes. Given close 
ties 
> > between Scandinavians and their descendants abroad, such traders 
> > might well have been every bit as Gothic as the relatives back 
home.
> > What are your thoughts in these matters, my fellow students?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Konrad.


> I can indeed agree with you that this is a possibility however hard 
to prove.




Dear Ingemar,

I cannot believe that you of all people endorse a statement of the 
type given above.  



> > 
> > The East Germanic language of Gothic has no younger Scandinavian 
> > descendants. Have a look at the O. Dahl's book 'The Origin of the 
> > Scandinavian languages'. Dahl shows that Gothic is not closer to 
any 
> > Scandinavian language than it is to all other Germanic languages. 
> 
> 
> In Dirks opinion, yes. Wessén among else thinks diffrent.
> 

My opinion does not matter, since I am not a linguist. What matters 
are the views of modern Scandinavianists like Elert and Dahl and they 
reject Wessen's view entirely. 




>  
> 
> > What are 'viking age' Goths in Scandinavia. Are you talking about 
> > north Germanic Gauts? These are completely different people!
> 
> 
> We discusssed this before. Hachmann for one agrees the Gauts were 
also 
> Goths. 


Not really, especially not in the sense that they came from 
Scandinavia, which Hachmann believed he proved that they did not. 



> 
> > There is a recent discussion with one of the leading experts on 
> > Gothic history over on the Germanic list. From this you can learn 
> > that the Gauts had no migrant cousins in form of East Germanic 
Goths 
> > in the south. Also, a casual reading of some of the standard 
works on 
> > Gothic history may help you to get a clearer view on the 
difference 
> > between North Germanic Gauts and East Germanic Goths. (e.g. P. 
> > Heather, H. Wolfram, W. Pohl etc. )
> 
> 
> As Tore has shown  Pohl does not definitely deny a connection 


Well, Pohl presents the same view like the other mainstream scholars. 
A mass migration of Scandinavian Gauts who than became Goths can be 
ruled out. Some contact, which set in after the establishment of the 
Gotones is, however, possible. 



> and nor 
> does Wolfram - on the contrary. 



Well, Wolfram would certainly not say that the Goths came from 
Scandinavia let alone were Scandinavians. 




> >> The alphabet could also have originated in Scandinavia. 
> 
> 
>   The younger could have originated there - yes - but the old seems 
to 
> have originated elsewhere but, as you say, Scandinavians might well 
have 
> been involved. The old runic coiné is the same everywhere with few 
> exeptions according to Makaev.





Why is it always so important that Scandinavians were involved, that 
everything was invented in Scandinavia, that everybody who mattered 
came from Scandinavia?? Whyyyyyy???;-)



> 
> 
> > 
> > The earliest runic inscriptions appear in southern Denmark and 
> > northern Germany. 
> 
> 
> Indeed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Dirk, you should read some still not translated papers of 
Swedish 
> universities and you should also give a closer regard to Anders 
Kaliff. 
> There is work  in prgress to publish some material with at least 
English 
> summaries - long ones - in a new magazine where I am involved. 
Within a 
> year I hope this can be realised but till then the material is the 
> property of the authors.


Pointing to unavailable material as evidence is not really helpful. 
An argument that is not commonly available in print can hardly be 
verified. Perhaps there is also material being prepared somewhere to 
prove the opposite? Anyway, I am sure that people like W. Pohl and A. 
Schwarcz etc. are fully aware of the latest developments in their 
field of expertise. The latest book by W. Pohl was published in 2002!

cheers,
Dirk









> 
> 
> Best 
> 
> Ingemar
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Ingemar Nordgren, Ph.D.
> Sjögrässtigen 15
> SE-533 73 KÄLLBY
> Sweden
> 46-510-541851


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