[gothic-l] Re: Digest Number 650

[M. Carver]

faltin2001 wrote:

> --- In gothic-l at y..., Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren at e...> wrote:
> > >  Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 04:14:47 -0000
> > >    From: "konrad_oddsson" <konrad_oddsson at y...>
> > > Dear Konrad,
> >
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Greetings my fellow students!
> >
> > ...
> > > I am as yet undecided in these matters. There are certainly
> parallel
> > > forms in a number of alphabets. Given that the "viking" age Goths
> in
> > > Scandinavia attributed the origin of the runes to Ó?inn/Wó?ins, I
> > > think it highly likely that their migrant cousins in the south
> did
> > > likewise. Nevertheless, religion and alphabetic history are two
> > > different things. Given the distribution and period of the extant
> > > inscriptions in the older form of the futhark, however, it seems
> > > highly likely that some migrating Scandinavian group/groups had
> > > something to do with the alphabet´s adoption. The fact that runic
> > > inscriptions later became a phenomenon almost exclusively
> peculiar
> > > to Scandinavia proper also suggests that the older alphabet was
> > > somehow closely connected to one or more Scandinavian groups
> abroad.
> > > The alphabet could also have originated in Scandinavia. Such an
> > > origination would, however, suggest that some group/groups from
> > > abroad travelled to Scandinavia for trade purposes. Given close
> ties
> > > between Scandinavians and their descendants abroad, such traders
> > > might well have been every bit as Gothic as the relatives back
> home.
> > > What are your thoughts in these matters, my fellow students?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Konrad.
>
> > I can indeed agree with you that this is a possibility however hard
> to prove.
>
> Dear Ingemar,
>
> I cannot believe that you of all people endorse a statement of the
> type given above.
>
> > >
> > > The East Germanic language of Gothic has no younger Scandinavian
> > > descendants. Have a look at the O. Dahl's book 'The Origin of the
> > > Scandinavian languages'. Dahl shows that Gothic is not closer to
> any
> > > Scandinavian language than it is to all other Germanic languages.
> >
> >
> > In Dirks opinion, yes. Wessén among else thinks diffrent.
> >
>
> My opinion does not matter, since I am not a linguist. What matters
> are the views of modern Scandinavianists like Elert and Dahl and they
> reject Wessen's view entirely.
>
> >
> >
> > > What are 'viking age' Goths in Scandinavia. Are you talking about
> > > north Germanic Gauts? These are completely different people!
> >
> >
> > We discusssed this before. Hachmann for one agrees the Gauts were
> also
> > Goths.
>
> Not really, especially not in the sense that they came from
> Scandinavia, which Hachmann believed he proved that they did not.
>
> >
> > > There is a recent discussion with one of the leading experts on
> > > Gothic history over on the Germanic list. From this you can learn
> > > that the Gauts had no migrant cousins in form of East Germanic
> Goths
> > > in the south. Also, a casual reading of some of the standard
> works on
> > > Gothic history may help you to get a clearer view on the
> difference
> > > between North Germanic Gauts and East Germanic Goths. (e.g. P.
> > > Heather, H. Wolfram, W. Pohl etc. )
> >
> >
> > As Tore has shown  Pohl does not definitely deny a connection
>
> Well, Pohl presents the same view like the other mainstream scholars.
> A mass migration of Scandinavian Gauts who than became Goths can be
> ruled out. Some contact, which set in after the establishment of the
> Gotones is, however, possible.
>
> > and nor
> > does Wolfram - on the contrary.
>
> Well, Wolfram would certainly not say that the Goths came from
> Scandinavia let alone were Scandinavians.
>
> > >> The alphabet could also have originated in Scandinavia.
> >
> >
> >   The younger could have originated there - yes - but the old seems
> to
> > have originated elsewhere but, as you say, Scandinavians might well
> have
> > been involved. The old runic coiné is the same everywhere with few
> > exeptions according to Makaev.
>
> Why is it always so important that Scandinavians were involved, that
> everything was invented in Scandinavia, that everybody who mattered
> came from Scandinavia?? Whyyyyyy???;-)
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > The earliest runic inscriptions appear in southern Denmark and
> > > northern Germany.
> >
> >
> > Indeed
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Dirk, you should read some still not translated papers of
> Swedish
> > universities and you should also give a closer regard to Anders
> Kaliff.
> > There is work  in prgress to publish some material with at least
> English
> > summaries - long ones - in a new magazine where I am involved.
> Within a
> > year I hope this can be realised but till then the material is the
> > property of the authors.
>
> Pointing to unavailable material as evidence is not really helpful.
> An argument that is not commonly available in print can hardly be
> verified. Perhaps there is also material being prepared somewhere to
> prove the opposite? Anyway, I am sure that people like W. Pohl and A.
> Schwarcz etc. are fully aware of the latest developments in their
> field of expertise. The latest book by W. Pohl was published in 2002!
>
> cheers,
> Dirk
>
> >
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Ingemar
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Ingemar Nordgren, Ph.D.
> > Sjögrässtigen 15
> > SE-533 73 KÄLLBY
> > Sweden
> > 46-510-541851
>
>
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