[gothic-l] Re: Tracing the Eruli

[Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk@smra.co.uk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > We will likely never know, but there are hundreds
> of
> > > reasons one 
> > > could come up with
> > Maybe the Varnians did not want
> > > them?
> > 
> > GK: More likely the Varnians accepted the Eruli
> > of Varnian origin. The rest then moved on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George, we have absolutely no evidence that their
> where Eruli of 
> Varinain origin or that the Varnians accepted any
> Eruli. I don't know 
> where you got that from.
> 
> *****GK: Hone your critical faculties a bit, Dirk, or
> your "esprit de finesse" if you prefer (following
> Pascal)(:=)) Since you must obviously admit, as you do
> in another post, that the Eruli were of heterogeneous
> composition, there is absolutely no evidence that the
> Varnians must be excluded as elements of the Danubian
> (or even East European for that matter) Erulian
> community; and from the "route to Thule" it is a
> wholly permissible inference that there were families
> of Slavs, Varnians, Dani, Gauts etc. among the
> "Eruli".****** 



The problem is that we have no knowledge of their ethnic composition, 
but our best guess must be that they contained non-Germanic steppe 
nomads (perhaps Alans, Taifali, Huns etc) and Germanic Heruls. Of 
various Germanic sub-groups we know nothing. 




> 
>   Again, we will never
> > > know, but whatever we 
> > > make of it I cannot see how the report by
> Procopius
> > > can be read as a 
> > > mass migration of tens of thousands of well
> > > organised Heruls.
> > 
> > GK: After further discussion the numbers at the
> > start were reduced to ca. 20,000, with the further
> > assumption that they diminished as the trek
> proceeded,
> > so that only a few thousand may actually have
> settled
> > "next to the Gauts", including many of "the royal
> > blood". 
> 
> 
> Well, this is now already much closer to my original
> suggestions. 
> Note, also when you argued that Procopius would never
> have bothered 
> writing about a 'puny' force of 500 to 1000 warriors.
> Yet, in the 
> Gothic war he reports at length how a Gothic force of
> up to 1000 men 
> held two cities and two Italian provinces.
> 
> ******GK: (Sigh) Of course Procopius could write about
> 1000, 100, or even two or three individuals under
> appropriate circumstances. The point is that he would
> not have bothered to write as much about the Eruli AS
> A PEOPLE if they were as insignificant as you
> systematically claim them to be.****** 



Politically, the Illyrian Heruls were insignificant. Yet, Procopius 
had a use for them and their history in his own contributions in the 
contemporary debate about barbarian policy. It did not matter that 
they were insignificant, their example was useful and this is what 
mattered.





> 
>  
> 
> 
> GK:The larger number ("Tens of thousands")was
> > posited earlier on the basis of the second fantastic
> > claim by Procopius, viz., that "most" of the initial
> > Herulian contingent which crossed the Danube was
> > subsequently slaughtered by the Romans.***** 
> (Troels)> > The description of their 
> > > > departure is not strong enough to convince that
> > > Procopius really 
> > > > knew. He was unclear and the "picture" he used
> was
> > > maybe just 
> > > > symbolic in order to hide his own lacking
> > > knowledge. Therefore I 
> > > > GUESS they separated already in Moravia trying
> > > first the Moravian 
> > > > Gate against the Vistula, where they were
> > > surprised by so many 
> > > > westgoing groups of Slavs that they preferred to
> > > follow the western 
> > > > route through barren country instead – and
> > > guessing is what you are 
> > > > doing too.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > (Dirk)This really, is a guess as you say yourself
> and as
> > > such it lacks any 
> > > foundation in the sources. I just hope you are not
> > > using this guess 
> > > for further analysis.
> > 
> > GK: You may not have noticed that Troels contends
> > that you are also guessing. I agree with him, and
> feel
> > that his guess has more substance than yours. 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I am content that you have greatly reduced your
> original 
> estimate to 'a few thousand' Thule Heruls, which is
> roughly in line 
> with my own estimate. Revising once view in light of
> better arguments 
> is an honorable thing to do.
> 
> *****GK:Well the less we get into honour the better.
> My basic point is that the Eruli after 509 remained a
> significant (if not major) power, especially in the
> North, and that the various theories propounded by
> Troels, Tore, and Einar as to their subsequent
> contributions to the development of Scandinavian
> politics are preferable to denigrating musings about
> them.******
> 


So you prefer theories according to which the Heruls went on to 
become the founders of the Vendel culture and the Viking Age, 
possibly were among the first settlers of Iceland (although Einar may 
have given up on this theory), brought the Aesir religion and scaldic 
poetry to Scandinavia?


Dirk  





You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/