[gothic-l] Re: Analogy between fate of Eruli and Burgundians?

[Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk@smra.co.uk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
>
> --- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt
>
>  wrote:
> > > > --- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
>  wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > One (hopefully) final point. The Herulic
> > armies
> > > > > which figured 3,000
> > > > > and 1,500 respectively may at that time
> > already have
> > > > > attracted new
> > > > > followers of the regions where they were
> > stationed.
> > > > > We know that the
> > > > > Visigoths were several times in their history
> > > > > supplemented by large
> > > > > numbers of slaves, Roman peasants and miners
> > who
> > > > > became Visigoths.
> > > > > Similarly, a unit of Heruls does not have to
> > include
> > > > > only the
> > > > > remnants of the once powerful Herulic tribe.
> > > >
>
> > > I am not sure this point is so good. First of all
> > no other people
> > > would join the weak people Dirk describes
> >
> > (DF) We have many examples in the history of
> > that period when
> > slavs and peasants joined peoples like Visigothic
> > groups even though
> > they were not in good shape at time. I suppose this
> > is simply a
> > matter of relative conditions. A slave may still
> > find it advantageous
> > to become a soldier or warrior in a small and weak
> > group if that
> > means escaping slavery, combined with the prospect
> > of plunder.
> > Procopius tells us that the Illyrian Heruls
> > harrassed the local Roman
> > provincials. This alone could have been enought for
> > slaves and minor
> > peasants to join the marauding groups of Heruls.
>
> ******GK: A comment in passing. The "joiners" would
> have been very few indeed, since otherwise this would
> have precipitated a social crisis. So in a very real
> sense this red herring by Dirk doesn't matter in the
> least, and does not influence retroactive computation
> of Illyrian-Erulian strength on the basis of
> Procopius' figures of 3000+1500.*****



George,

this is a completely empty argument it seems to me. Just because you
assume that this would cause a 'social crisis' you reject the
possibility of Roman slaves and disgruntled tax payers to join the
remaining Heruls. Large numbers of slaves, mine workers and
agricultural labourers have joined Visigoths and of the Sueves of
Spain we hear that they once even joined forces with very large
groups of Bacaudae, yet we never hear that his has caused any 'social
crisis'. You cannot reject an argument just because assume that
something might have happened, for which you have no basis
whatsoever. Hence, mine is a perfectly valid argument and it does
matter for any attemt to extrapolate tribal strength.

Dirk






>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com


You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/