[gothic-l] Re: Analogy between fate of Eruli and Burgundians?

[Troels Brandt <trbrandt@post9.tele.dk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
<dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt <trbrandt at p...>"
> <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> > > --- "Troels Brandt <trbrandt at p...>"
> > >
> > >  I would
> > > > rather think that the Heruls going north were
> > > > followed by other pagan
> > > > Germanic people being defeated or threathened at
> > > > this time of the new
> > > > Christian groups as Franks and Lombards. Alamans is
> > > > one example as
> > > > they were pressed from 498 AD - Thuringians is maybe
> > > > another
> > >
> > > *****GK: When you say "followed" do you mean to say
> > > that these Alamans and Thuringians joined the original
> > > trekkers or that they went north on their own?*****
> >
> > While Procopius described the people escaping at last to the
Romans
> > as perplexed loosers (here I agree with Dirk execpt about the
> > numbers), he described the group going north headed by many of
> royal
> > blood as a determined group - archaeology confirms that they at
> least
> > due to trade connections knew where to go. If we assume that this
> is
> > correct - which to me appears probable - the first group would be
> > avoided and the last would be joined by people who were not
> satisfied
> > in their own society. This is a natural reaction, and small
groups
> of
> > followers would normally follow the groups of trekkers - not go
the
> > same way themselves. I guess this was what happened with the
> > Cimbrians too.
> >
> > I do not talk about whole tribes, but unsatisfied people in
> societies
> > under pressure by Franks, Lombards and Christianity - a pressure
> > which may have caused split in these societies as we know
happened
> at
> > least two times among the Heruls.
> >
> > This would result in the mixed archaeological pattern, which has
> been
> > discussed a lot of times.
> >
> > This is just mentioned as a more probable alternative than Dirks
> > suggestion, and Dirks comments should be answered too in the
above.
> >
> > Troels
>
>
>
> Not really, firstly we cannot make a case that dissatisfied
> Thurgingians, Varnians and Western Heruls joined the remaining
> Eastern Heruls, simply because there is not a shred of evidence to
> support such a claim. Secondly, from the migratory path that
> Procopius suggests, we could -if anything - only assume that
Eastern
> Varnians and especially Slavic tribesmen followed the Heruls.
> Thirdly, I have shown earlier that your argument that those people
> would have joined the Heruls for religious reasons is particularly
> invalid, since Thuringians, Langobards and Franks were largely
pagan
> at the time. All this looks to me like very desparate attempts to
> arteficially inflate the strength of the remaining Heruls. For such
> speculation we lack any support in the sources.
>
> Dirk

It is always interesting to analyze the motives of a writer - and it
is a part of the process when analyzing history, but it has to be
properly done. At least for me the purpose has been to show, that you
this time put too much into the text, and that your claims have more
realistic alternatives though these are unfounded too. Therefore it
makes no sense to criticize a counterpart for speculations when his
point is that both parties speculate.

Troels




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