[gothic-l] Re: GUTANI WIHAILAG

Tue Jul 1 08:08:44 UTC 2003

Hello, Ravi

I didn't understand very well your question, but I'll try to give an 
answer.
Gutane (which can be read on the golden necklace of the Gothic 
treasury of Pietroasa, Romania) was interpreted (among other 
alternatives, see Dirk's recent messages) as genitive plural of a 
masculie n-stem *Gutan-, which would be in nominative singular *Guta, 
plural *Gutans, thus *Gutane would mean "of the Goths" (cf. 
Köbler's "Gotisches Wörterbuch" and the literature indicated there). 
The feminine form would be Guto "Gothic woman", which is attested as 
a personal name. It is shure that the Goths used for themselves the 
root Gut-, the word Gut-thiuda "Goth-people" (= "Gothic people") 
being attested in the Gothic Calendar.
Now regarding the modern English word Goth. According to Webster's 
New World College Dictionary, it is derived from late Latin Gothi, 
which in it's turn comes from Greek Gothoi (or Gotthoi, according to 
my Old Greek dictionary). The "h" was apparently introduced by the 
Greeks. In Old Greek "th" (theta) was an aspirated [t] and not the 
English interdental sond "th". In Latin, "th" was only a graphy, it 
was read [t]. It is noteworthy that in Latin is attested also the 
form "Goti", namely in Gothic Latin texts (see Köbler), which means 
that the original sound was "t", not "th". It is also worth to 
mention that the Old English form is "Gotan" (see Webster), 
without "h" and with the same n-stem as in the putative Gothic form 
*Gutan-. Also in other languages, the name of the Goths doesn't 
contain the "h", for example the German "Goten" (again n-stem!).
Regarding the transformation short [u] > short [o], it is attested in 
all Germanic languages and also in later stage of Gothic (latinized 
Gothic words in latin sources, Crimean Gothic words of XVIth century).

With best regards,
Francisc

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary" 
<ravichaudhary2000 at y...> wrote:
> To both of  you 
> 
> How do one derive Goth from Gut- ane.?
> 
> Ravi
> 
> 
> 
> -- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor at y...> 
> wrote:
> > Hi, Dirk,
> > 
> > I don't dispute the reading 'gutane', I just mean that, based on 
> what 
> > we know about Wulfila's Gothic language, 'gutane' means 
rather 'of 
> > the Goths' than 'good' (which would be goths, goda-). jer 'year' 
in 
> > Gothic is neutrum, like the German 'Jahr', and if you wish to 
> > somebody 'ein gutes Jahr', this would be in Gothic 'godata jer', 
> and 
> > not 'gutane jer'. 'gutane jer' could mean only 'year of the 
Goths' 
> > (?!)
> > 
> > Francisc
> > 
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > Hi Francisc,
> > > 
> > > I have no linguistic knowledge and rely only on secondary 
> sources. 
> > > The reading 'GUTANE JER WEIH HAILAG' I found in a recent 
article 
> by 
> > > A. Schwarcs "Cult and Religion among the Tervingi and the 
> Visigoths 
> > > and their conversion to Christianity" in 'The Visigoths from 
the 
> > > Migration to the 7th Century: An Ethnographic Perspective', Ed. 
> P. 
> > > Heather, 2000. 
> > > 
> > > p. (page numbers not on my copy) "A recent study one by Hermann 
> > > Reichert with a thorough scrutiny of th eoriginal in Bucarest 
in 
> > 1992 
> > > gives as the most plausible reading of this runic 
> > inscription "gutane 
> > > jer weih hailag", a blessing for a fruitful and prosperous 
> year..."
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The Runenprojekt of the University of Kiel in Germany also 
> records 
> > > the following alternative interpretations:
> > > 
> > > Gutani¿ w³hhailag 
> > > sacrosanctum of gothic women/female warriors(?) 
> > > Antonsen, Elmer H. 1975
> > > 
> > > Gutaniom hailag 
> > > dedicated to the Gothic Mothers (=female guardian spirits of 
the 
> > > Goths) 
> > > Krogmann, Willy. 1978
> > > 
> > > (G)ut(an³) (¿) (1Z) (w³)hh(a)i(l)ag ... 
> > > the Goths' protector (=king) (1Z) [be/is] sacrosanct ...
> > > Isb&%escu, Mihai. 1960
> > > 
> > > guttani hailag wiko
> > > holy song of the Goths - Wiko (=rota of the great cult of the 
> > tribe) 
> > > Gutenbrunner, Siegfried. 1964
> > > 
> > > Gutani¿ w³h hailag 
> > > the holy relic of gothic priestesses (=the [altar] ring) 
> > > Johnsen, Ingrid Sanness., 1971
> > > 
> > > Gutan³ (¿) [1Z] (w³)h hailag 
> > > the Goths' hereditary property - (1Z) - consecrated [and] 
> > inviolable 
> > > Krause, Wolfgang, Herbert Jankuhn.
> > > 1966
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > What is clear from this list is that the reading and the 
> > translation 
> > > is rather uncertain. However, in contrast to Reichert's latest 
> > study 
> > > not all of these translations above will have been based on a 
> close 
> > > analysis of the original ring, so that some of them likely 
suffer 
> > > from a misreading of the runes. 
> > > 
> > > cheers
> > > Dirk 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" 
> > <fericzobor at y...> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hi, Dirk,
> > > > 
> > > > I write 'GUTANI WIHAILAG' because it is in Gothic and because 
> > it's 
> > > > from my country, Romania. In fact, the runes read GUTANI?
> > WIHAILAG, 
> > > > where ? is for the illegible rune at the place of the 
fracture 
> of 
> > > the 
> > > > necklace. I know that there are still controversies regarding 
> the 
> > > > interpretation of this text, but I personally think that it 
is 
> > not 
> > > > very plausible the interpretation of GUTANI as 'gutane' 
> = 'good'.
> > > > First: indeed, in German 'gut' = 'good', but in Gothic 'good' 
> is 
> > > > goths/goda-, so the genitive plural, weak adjectival 
> declension, 
> > > > would be 'godane', not 'gutane'.
> > > > Second: it doesn't make sense in this context to put the 
> > > > adjective 'good' in genitive plural. But the 
substantive "Goth" 
> > in 
> > > > genitive plural - "of the Goths" is more meaningful.
> > > > So I still prefer to consider that the most plausible 
> > > interpretation 
> > > > of GUTANI is 'gutane' = 'of the Goths'.
> > > > 
> > > > With best regards,
> > > > Francisc
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> 
wrote:
> > > > > ... 
> > > > > Hi Francisc,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I see that you write 'GUTANI WIHAILAG'. Did you know that 
the 
> > > > latest 
> > > > > investigation on the original ring suggests that the best 
> > reading 
> > > > of 
> > > > > the inscription is 'gutane jer weih hailag', which is a 
> > blessing 
> > > > for 
> > > > > a good year, with 'gutane' meaning 'good' . Hence, the name 
> of 
> > > the 
> > > > > Goths is probably not on the ring.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > > Dirk

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