[gothic-l] Re: "Umlaut" in Gothic?

Wed Sep 24 07:38:21 UTC 2003

*<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Hi Tore!

You mentioned recently that Russian and
western scholars (of any generation) use
different sources and do not know ones
of others. It is quite true. Your position
confirms this statement. Ok, let us examine
the matter step by step.

Now it is all the rage in Russia to lump
all blames on communists. I never was
a communist and never approved the communist
ideology, but preserving objectivity I have
to note that negation and concealment of any
Scandinavian presence and influence on the
territory of Initial Russia began very long
before the communist times, namely since
18th century (Lomonosov). "Normanistic" and
"antinormanistic" fashions interchanged
periodically in Tsars' Russia. Nowadays the
most fervent "antinormanists", i.e. adherents
of indigenous origins of Kiev Russia, remain
Ukrainian scholars, which trample down
simultaneously both communists and Vikings.

Nevertheless, the fact that the settling
(the "wik" like Dorestad or Birka) Ladoga
(now the village Staraya Ladoga) at the
Volkhov's debouchment was founded in the
middle of the 8th century by Scandinavians
is obvious and cannot be contested. (BTW,
both Russian "Ladoga" and Old Scandinavian
"Aldeigjuborg" are independently derivative
from Finnish "ala-djogi" meaning "downer
river"). Also the most probable founder
of the fortress Gorodishche at the Volkhov's
source was an unknown and nameless
Scandinavian konung somewhere at the end
of 9th century (the date is from memory).

Now we can turn to Nestor. I seem it was you
who did not read Nestor. Nestor (more exactly,
an Original Chronicler of the 11-12 cc. as
his identity with Nestor is conjecturable)
did not ever mention Ladoga or Gorodishche.
The Original Chronicle knows only Novgorod.
Ladoga appears in some Novgorod's chronicles
of approximately 16-16 cc. Gorodishche is
a contemporaneous name, it is mentioned in
no Russian chronicles at all. Besides, it was
a fortress with no aboriginal inhabitants,
which, according to Nestor, had called for
Varangians. Of course, Ladoga had all the more
no need to call for Varangians as founders
and inhabitants of the town from the very
beginning. No other towns are known in that
area of that time.

Regarding Kiev. Again, should you have read
Nestor, you'd know that Nestor arrogated
foundation of Kiev to a legendary knyaz Kiy,
who lived, according to Nestor, long before
Rurik. Settlements on the territory of modern
Kiev existed since 5th century. Kiev as a center
of Russians was mentioned by Ibn-Fadlan (1922)
and Constantine Porphyrogenite (middle of 10 c.).
But a first confirmed archaeologically town
(with fortifications) appeared only at the end
of 10th c. (so called "Vladimir's town") but for
a tiny stronghold of 5-6 cc. ("Kiy's town").

I never read Igor Sjaskolskij, moreover, even
never heard this name. To list here all sources
I have read would take to much space. Alas,
almost all of them were in Russian.
Unfortunately the list does not include sources
in Swedish and other West European languages.
You were right that it is our common misfortune.

At present no one serious scholar can ignore
the Scandinavian impact on the Initial Russian
history. Nevertheless, the discussion between
"normanists" and "antinormanists" is in progress.
The first trouble is that each side does not want
to hear arguments of the contrary side. The other
trouble is that both sides really have arguments
in favor of their own. But this is another theme
too large to be involved here.

Regards,

Vladimir

-----Original Message-----
From: Tore Gannholm [mailto:tore.gannholm at swipnet.se]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 7:31 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [gothic-l] Re: "Umlaut" in Gothic?

I do not speak about the communist scholars that tried to hide
everything Scandinavian. I talk about todays scholars some of which I
met last week in Novgorod and Staraja Ladoga.
They even mentioned that during the Communist time the archaeologists
made excavations in Staraja Ladoga to prove that there were no
Scandinavian involvement. They only found Scandinavian houses dating
back to about 750. They quickly closed the shaft and said that they
found nothing. All this has now been reexcavated.

If you read Nestor Rurik came with his true Varangians and his
household to Staraja Ladoga where he stayed two years. After that he
went to Gorodisje. (Two km from Novgorod) This has during the last
couple of years been excavated and can be dated to the time mentioned
in Nestor.

According to Nestor it is only after that time the establised in Kiev
which agrees with archaelogical findings.

It would be very interesting to see what your sources are. If you
have read Igor Sjaskolskij  from 1965 I can very well understand you
position. This was the official communist view no longer accepted.

Tore

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/