[gothic-l] Re: "Umlaut" in Gothic?

[Tore Gannholm]

Hi Vladimir!
I can only agree with you.
I have understood that these ideas started already during the 19th
century but were officially supported later on.

We have much work ahead of us. I am trying to gather all sources I
get hold of on my research library. Unfortunately, as you have seen,
most of it is in Swedish, The Russian documents I can't read.

About Nestor, I have it in front of me.
However one has to read it very carefully as he is mixing religion
with actual happenings.

Tore


>
>
>Hi Tore!
>
>
>
>You mentioned recently that Russian and
>western scholars (of any generation) use
>different sources and do not know ones
>of others. It is quite true. Your position
>confirms this statement. Ok, let us examine
>the matter step by step.
>
>
>
>Now it is all the rage in Russia to lump
>all blames on communists. I never was
>a communist and never approved the communist
>ideology, but preserving objectivity I have
>to note that negation and concealment of any
>Scandinavian presence and influence on the
>territory of Initial Russia began very long
>before the communist times, namely since
>18th century (Lomonosov). "Normanistic" and
>"antinormanistic" fashions interchanged
>periodically in Tsars' Russia. Nowadays the
>most fervent "antinormanists", i.e. adherents
>of indigenous origins of Kiev Russia, remain
>Ukrainian scholars, which trample down
>simultaneously both communists and Vikings.
>
>
>
>Nevertheless, the fact that the settling
>(the "wik" like Dorestad or Birka) Ladoga
>(now the village Staraya Ladoga) at the
>Volkhov's debouchment was founded in the
>middle of the 8th century by Scandinavians
>is obvious and cannot be contested. (BTW,
>both Russian "Ladoga" and Old Scandinavian
>"Aldeigjuborg" are independently derivative
>from Finnish "ala-djogi" meaning "downer
>river"). Also the most probable founder
>of the fortress Gorodishche at the Volkhov's
>source was an unknown and nameless
>Scandinavian konung somewhere at the end
>of 9th century (the date is from memory).
>
>
>
>Now we can turn to Nestor. I seem it was you
>who did not read Nestor. Nestor (more exactly,
>an Original Chronicler of the 11-12 cc. as
>his identity with Nestor is conjecturable)
>did not ever mention Ladoga or Gorodishche.
>The Original Chronicle knows only Novgorod.
>Ladoga appears in some Novgorod's chronicles
>of approximately 16-16 cc. Gorodishche is
>a contemporaneous name, it is mentioned in
>no Russian chronicles at all. Besides, it was
>a fortress with no aboriginal inhabitants,
>which, according to Nestor, had called for
>Varangians. Of course, Ladoga had all the more
>no need to call for Varangians as founders
>and inhabitants of the town from the very
>beginning. No other towns are known in that
>area of that time.
>
>
>
>Regarding Kiev. Again, should you have read
>Nestor, you'd know that Nestor arrogated
>foundation of Kiev to a legendary knyaz Kiy,
>who lived, according to Nestor, long before
>Rurik. Settlements on the territory of modern
>Kiev existed since 5th century. Kiev as a center
>of Russians was mentioned by Ibn-Fadlan (1922)
>and Constantine Porphyrogenite (middle of 10 c.).
>But a first confirmed archaeologically town
>(with fortifications) appeared only at the end
>of 10th c. (so called "Vladimir's town") but for
>a tiny stronghold of 5-6 cc. ("Kiy's town").
>
>
>
>I never read Igor Sjaskolskij, moreover, even
>never heard this name. To list here all sources
>I have read would take to much space. Alas,
>almost all of them were in Russian.
>Unfortunately the list does not include sources
>in Swedish and other West European languages.
>You were right that it is our common misfortune.
>
>
>
>At present no one serious scholar can ignore
>the Scandinavian impact on the Initial Russian
>history. Nevertheless, the discussion between
>"normanists" and "antinormanists" is in progress.
>The first trouble is that each side does not want
>to hear arguments of the contrary side. The other
>trouble is that both sides really have arguments
>in favor of their own. But this is another theme
>too large to be involved here.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Vladimir
>
>

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