[gothic-l] Re: Visigoths not "Booted Out"

[Ingemar Nordgren]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:

Hi Dirk,

> Hi Ingemar,
>
> this is exactly what I find hard to believe. Papal support was of
> little value to the Catholic Visigothic kings of the 7th century. The
> Catholic Visigothic church tried to remain as isolated from Roman
> influence as possible. During the whole 7th century the Papal Office
> in Rome sent only a couple of letters to the Spanish church and when
> they did they were in one particular instance addressed to a Bishop
> who had died several years earlier, which demonstrated that the Pope
> was almost completely uninformed about the events in Spain. Thus, it
> is very difficult to see why and how a Visigothic Catholic king could
> derive support from a Pope who was not informed, but even
> deliberately excluded from developments in Spain.

As I told you before I make no real difference between the pope, being
head of the Catholic church, and the Church itself. The important  for
these kings was the label Catholic instead of the "heretic" Arian.
They felt more similar their fellow robberkings around seeing how they
grasped power over large areas with clerical backing. This was also
how the Merovingians and certainly the Carolingians succeded in
grasping big power.Also the poor Langobards were forced into Catholicism.


...the persecution of the Jews and the Visigothic
> nobles in Spain in the 7th century was not primarily due to the
> conversion to Catholicism, but it was the result of the emergence of
> a stronger central kingship which happened already in Arian times.
> However, I agree that the conversion to Catholicism did reduce the
> king's reliance on the Visigothic nobles, which was, however, a good
> thing. After all the period of the early 7th century was one of
> greatest strength and success of the Spanish/Visigothic state.

 At least we seem to have something that we can agree on. I can buy
your description above with exception of it being 'a good thing'. The
strenght and success during the early 7th c. was acceptable but what
about the late part?
>
> The balance shifted in an unhappy way
> > leaving the way free for the king to run for power like his fellow
> > Catholic kings and don't say the Toledo councils did not matter.

> The councils where called in relatively infrequently and they dealt
> mostly with church matters.

Yes, like banning Jews and similar questions transferring in reality
power to the king with clerical backing. Why do you think the
inquisition appeared just in Spain? There were also a considerable
great number of councils.

Best greetings
Ingemar



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