[gothic-l] Re: International

Thu Aug 19 13:44:34 UTC 2004

Hails, Fredrik!

-- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts at h...> wrote:

> > If I have understood your explanations right my sentence 'weig 
> aftumist and-weiham' should mean like 'we are opposed to the last 
> fight', that is 'we don't like the last fight', is that a correct 
> assume?

Yes, that's what I was thinking.  Judging by the examples of its use 
in the Gothic Bible.

> To get it right with the right number of syllables in each row, of 
> which the first contains 7 syllables, i think, i think the latter 
of 
> your suggestions is better. But could be OK with this word 
> order 'weig aftumisto weihan'? I also prefer to have the 
> form 'weiham' instead of weihan. So my new proposition is 'Weig 
> aftumisto weiham' (or alternative: 'aftumisto weig weiham').

Yes, that should work.  As sometimes in the earlier Old English 
poetry, Gothic can use the weak form of the adjective even with no 
article/demonstrative, in places where we might use the definite 
article in modern English, e.g. Mk 11,1: at fairgunja alewjin "at the 
mount of olives".

> > THAIRH GADETH.  I'm not quite sure what you had in mind here.  
> > Literally "Through deed"?  "By our actions"??
> 
> Well, I had to find something that rhymes with mana-seth, and also 
> fit into the row, with right number of syllables. My idea was to 
get 
> something like: 'Unite by action'.

Ah, I see.  Yes, THAIRH can can that sense of "by means of" (e.g. J 
11,4 ei hauhjaidau sunus gudis thairh thata.

> > LISAN is always used for 'gather' in the sense of 'collect, 
> harvest, 
> > gather in', rather than 'unite'.  But who knows, maybe it had 
> > extended senses which just weren't recorded.  GALISAN can mean 
> > either 'collect/harvest' or reflexively SIK GALISAN 'congregate, 
> come 
> > together, meet'.  The GA- probably helps give it a sense 
> > of "together".  Other possibilities, with the more specific 
> > meaning 'join': gawidan, gagatilon, (ga)gahaftjan.
> 
> In this case I meant to use it as 'gather'. I don't know if i'm 
right 
> but the original says: 'Sera le gendre humain'. This 'sera' I think 
> is imperative of serrer, which I think could be translated 
> as 'gather'.
> > 
> But I've changed the word 'lisiþ' to 'gawidiþ'. A problem is that 
now 
> there's one more syllable. But it sounds OK anyway i think.

Yeah, as long as the stresses are in the right places you can still 
sing it.  The exact number of syllables varies between some of the 
different language versions I looked at.

> > 
> > 
> I just wanna hear what you think about my using of the 
> word 'internatsjonals' instead of make a new word as you did?
> >
> I think that emphasis in the song shouldn't be as it as it realy 
> should be. In the second sentence i think it sounds better to have 
> the emphasis on the last i in ga-qimith, rather than anywere else.
> The pronunciation of ga-widith tho...sounds better as gawiditho, 
with 
> a long th-sound. What do think about these things? 

If we treat "The International" like an adjective made into an 
abstract definite noun, I reckon it would probably be neuter: thata 
Intairnatsjonalo (cf. thata ubilo).  (With AI to represent the 
short /e/ sound.)  I think that scans better with the stress/emphasis 
in the penultimate syllable, like WEIHAM.  I agree with you that the 
stress should fall on the same syllables in the song as it would in 
ordinary speech. In the final line I think it would work better with 
an unstressed prefix, either galisith or gawidith, and miss out the 
definite article, which is used much less in Gothic than English 
anyway.

WEIG AFTumisto WEIHam,
GaQIMiþ THAIRH gaDETH.
THATa INTairnatsjonALo,
gaLISiþ MANaSETH.

That takes a bit of liberty with GADETH, since the GA- is usually 
considered to have been stressed in nouns & adjectives, unlike in Old 
English and modern German.  But it's probably acceptable, since the 
root DETH must have had a quite strong secondary stress.  In my 
version of the first verse I also cheated by putting the last 
syllable of THIUDE in an emphatic position.  At least its long, but 
maybe we can think of a better way of doing it?  BATIZEI isn't so 
bad, since the intervening unstressed /i/ makes it more natural to 
give a bit of emphasis to that final long vowel.

> > ____________________________________________
> > 
> > 
> > For "worker's of the world unite", I'd go for a mixture of your 
two 
> > suggestions, e.g.:
> > Fairhwaus waurstwans gaqimith!
> > Waurstwans fairhwaus gaqimith!
> > ...gagaggith izwis!
> > ...galisith izwis!
> 
> About this quotation I wonder if you know in what language Marx 
wrote 
> the original? I guess it was either german or english, but i'm not 
> sure. If it was english, the translation should start out 
> from 'worker's of the world unite'. But if it was in german, maybe 
> the formulation was in a different way...i don't know for sure.
> 
> In swedish (which is tha language which i speak) the quot is 
> said: 'arbetare (or proletärer) i alla länder, förena er (or 
förenen 
> eder)'. This means litteraly: workers (or proletarians) in all 
> countries, unite!
> Be cause of this I had the proposition: 'arbáidjarjos in allane 
> lande, ga-qimith!'.
> I don't think the word 'arbáidjarjos' is recorded, but what about 
the 
> usage of it?

In German: Proletarier aller Länder, vereinigt euch!  Maybe that was 
the original, but I'm not sure either.  *ARBAIDJARJOS seems like a 
perfectly good reconstruction to me, although the Goths themselves 
seem to have used the terms WAURSTWANS or WAURSTWJANS.  The latter is 
actually more common, and probably better as it avoids confusion with 
WAURSTWA "works, deeds".

GAHAFTNAN appears at L 10,11, with reference to 
dust "sticking/attaching itself".

GAHAFTJAN SIK appears at L 15,15, where the Prodigal Son "attaches 
himself" to a citizen, in other words, he become the man's servant.

GAGAHAFTJAN appears at Eph 4,16: all leik gagatiloþ <jah> gagahaftiþ 
þairh allos gawissins andstaldis  - "the whole body fits together and 
joins together with the help of all the joints".

GAWIDAN, Mk 10,9: þatei nu guþ gawaþ, manna þamma ni skaidai  - "what 
God has joined, let no man put asunder" (break apart).

HAFTJAN on its own, or HAFTJAN SIK, occurs a few times, meaning 
attach oneself [+dative to something], but all the examples are 
figurative with the sense of "be attached to [some habit]" e.g. 
drinking, praying, etc.

The extra GA- in GA-GA-HAFTJAN gives it the collective sense, so 
maybe that's closest to the meaning we're looking for: FAIRHWAUS 
WAURSTWJANS GAGAHAFTEITH (IZWIS)!  But with so few examples, it's 
hard to tell how literal or figurative these words were in normal 
use.  GAWIDAN I think is related to the noun WADI 'pledge'.

> > ___________________________________________
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Finally, here's my go at a Gothic "The Internationale".  I 
> consulted 
> > as many of the various language versions here as I could 
> understand: 
> > http://angelfire.com/pq/svechka
> > 
> > Usstandith allans huhraus bandjans!
> > Usstandith uswaurpos thiude!
> > So unraihteins skal suns gaandjan:
> > atist auk airtha batizei.
> > 
> > Afwaurpanos sind bandjos fairnjos,
> > gasatiths aftra hlains jah dal.
> > Gasniwam weis us faur bi stairnons.
> > Ni waiht, weis habam wairthan all.
> > 
> > Tho nunu spediston  haifst haifstjam,
> > naht andstandandans.
> > Thata Gathiudaliuth, gahlaibans,
> > gawidith alamans.
> > 
> Well done. I tried to sing your version and found it very easy to 
> sing, so i think you've done a good job to fit in the right numbers 
> of syllables in all rows. Even though the litteraly meaning of it 
is 
> quite different from the swedish version I think that the version 
as 
> a whole has the same meaning.
> These sentences 'gasniwam weis us faur bi stairnons' and 'naht 
> andstandandans' are nothing I have seen before. Is it your own 
> creation or does some version have those sentences?

Thanks!  Yeah, I have to admit, I made up those two lines up for the 
rhyme.  I was already thinking about ANDSTANDAN, after our discussion 
of ANDWEIHAN, so I just needed a metaphorical thing to withstand.  
NAHTS is convenient because it's a constanant stem, and so the dative 
is just one syllable.  And STAIRNONS was just to rhyme with 
FAIRNJONS.  I did consider this alternative:

Afwairpam bandjom midjungardis.
Was aftra gasatiths hlains jah dal.
Nist nauths uns stauins aiththau wardis.
Ni waiht, weis habam wairthan all.

(-wairpan can take dative or accusative)  "We have no need of 
judges/rulers or guards."  (Compare Portuguese: não mais senhores!)  
That's probably saying the same as all the versions which have the 
theme of "no more in thrall", no masters = no slaves.  But WAS in 
line two might be one too many syllables.

There is actually quite a bit of variety among the different language 
versions.  For example, English:

     For reason/justice thunders new creation 
     `Tis a better world in birth. 

For reason in revolt now thunders 
     And at last ends the age of cant. 

Spanish:

The workers/proletarians cry: War!
War till the end of opression.

Gawairthi thus,

Llama Nom

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