[gothic-l] Re: Baltic Amber

Sun Jul 25 21:21:56 UTC 2004

FEJDN,

Thanks, thats an interresting comment about the changes in archeology in post-communist Poland. I'll keep my eyes open for new information from there.

I always thought the Marcomannis were west of the Goths. Along the Tisza R. and that stretch where the Danube flows south through Hungary. Ptolemy (Geography) says the Goths start expanding about 150 CE.

I think of the Goths as becoming a real world power after the Marcomanni Wars. They press the Romans in Dacia until it is abandoned. The group, that later becomes the Visigoths, takes it over and with it have a source of income from the mines and farms of the plateau. Simultaneously the eastern group is becoming established along the river valleys and trading cities of the northern Black Sea. A hundred years later the Goths kill their first Emperor, Decius. Though they were eventually defeated, their power in the Lower Danube and northern Black Sea becomes stronger.

Jim

"F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth at att.net> wrote:
Dear Ingemar,
We seem to agree, and there are several things to consider.
One is that the distribution of archaeological sites from the
Wielbark/Willenberg culture have ONLY been "established" up until this
present date. The whole matter is still an open question. To close the
books and say that things are "confirmed" or set in stone as concerns
the Gotones not living at the coast but(ONLY) inlands is akin to Queen
Isabella saying "no" to Columbus because it has been "established"
that the world is flat.
There is still an enormous amount of area to survey as concerns the
question of the Goths in Poland. Under Communism, research on the
Goths became politically anathema. It is of late and due to Poland
joining the free world coupled with such things as a desire to
preserve the cultural resourcs threatened by the EuRoPol- Trasa
Gazociągu or "Gas pipeline project" that investigation again started.
The latter efforts have uncovered some 270 significant sites, some of
them of the Wielbark, Przeworsk, Oksywie etc; most notably extensive
barrow cemeteries of the Odry-Węsiory-Grzybnica type, at which stone
circles consisting of large boulders/stelae were raised. These seem to
be sites of a ritual character where tribal meetings (perhaps those
known as "things") took place. Sites of this type are also found in
the Kashubian and Krajeński Lakelands, extending to the Koszalin
region in the Central Lakelands. Some of these sites are associated
with the Goths (please see Kartuzy) the later is no more than 10 to 15
km from the coast. There has unfortunately been little investigation
closer to the coast but it is just a matter of time before there is.
Why some individuals choose to declare that all has been found and
established can only have a negative inpact on any scientific discipline.

Cheers,
F.E.J.D.

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar at n...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Ingemar,
> >
> > the archaeological distribution of the Wielbark/Willenberg culture is
> > fairly well established and it confirms that the Gotones did not live
> > at the coast, but that they lived inlands. This is also in line with
> > Tacitus' description and with the suggestion that they have been
> > under Marcomannic suzereinty at some point.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dirk
>
> They lived in connection to/along the Vistula and both closer and
> further from the coast according to different  descriptions, but
> probably not in Samland as I have already commented.This was however
> later the origin-area of the third Gothic group-the Gepids - in a
> multi-ochtonous tribeformation according to Ockulicz. The amber-trade
> however is quite possible to control, at least in parts, if you
> control the rivers and some strategic points- you do not need to
> control the production-area.
>
> Greetings
> Ingemar

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