[gothic-l] Re: Cagots (how pure were the Goths?)

Wed Jun 9 13:24:02 UTC 2004

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "F.E.J.D. IV" <visigoth at a...> wrote:
> Denis you've made some very excellent points. 
> You picked up on the erroneous notion of "purity" quite well, and 
your
> point was quite correct. The notion of "purity" as concerns people
> groups is an erroneous romantic idea, which springs eternal in every
> generation. We get caught up in that notion without even knowing it
> and remain uncritical of it because it seems so appealing or 
natural.
> What struck me is that this incident certainly begs the question, 
what
> are OUR individual notions about what "IS" Germanic and/or what we
> mean by "pure" in such contexts? --- 

Dirk:
In Germanic history the term is usually understood linguistically. 
Thus, any people speaking a predominantely Germanic language is 
Germanic. This is probably different from ancient ethnic categories, 
which might have put more emphasis on geography and/or customs. In 
think the term 'pure' has little value in the discussion of 
ethnic/linugistic compositions, especially since pure as opposed to 
impure has a qualitavite connotation of better, superior which modern 
scholarship must reject in this context.

Usually, the term Germanic is
> imbued with all kinds of romantic notions centered on an idealized
> stereotypical model that is somehow descended from a perfectly
> homogenous population and free of other ethnic admixture (pure). But
> the problem is that the latter notion is a totally fictitious one. 
It
> is a house of cards, mere propaganda and politicization, a way of
> drumming-up a sense of superiority in spite of, and against all
> scientific reason. One has to admit that much of the latter has been
> shaped by certain scientifically discredited, romantical and 
political
> notions of the last two centuries; yet, some people are still
> convinced of it, or (as I think in this case) benignly and 
unknowingly
> caught-up in the ideas. 

Dirk:
Absolutely correct, I think, much of the talk about glorious 
Visigothic achievements about which we heard earlier and which even 
culminated in the desire to reestablish Gothic as a living language 
in Spain, is likely, as you said benignly and unknowingly, caught up 
in nationalistic/racial categories of Germanic superiority.

The fact many people are unknowingly caught-up
> in the idea should spur us to confront the notion since it gives us 
an
> erroneous concept about what Germanic is. --- One important thing to
> remember is that there can be no singular objective narrow reference
> of what a "Germanic" phenotype is. Instead, one must use broad
> descriptions in order to encompass all phenotypes found in Germanic
> language areas. To drive my point, all one need do is to look 
through
> the pages of National Geographic from [September 1991 – where one 
can
> find an article on Germany] and another about Sweden, [August 1993
> (especially see pages 20 and 21)]. The maritime areas of the Baltic
> Sea are by far the area with the greatest percentage of light 
colored
> hair about (50%), and the maritime areas between Britain and Denmark
> have the highest percentage of light colored eyes, (about 50%),
> (Krantz, 1980).. The percentages for each decline the farther one
> moves away from these areas. Even despite the fact that Germany
> instituted serious breeding programs for these two traits during the
> early-mid 20th Century, both traits are rarely found in 50% of
> individuals (Krantz, 1980). Even in Eastern Sweden, the area closest
> to the Baltic one will find quite a lot of variation. -- Thus, it is
> folly to assume that there is a representative Germanic phenotype;
> there are only general tendencies, certain areas may have a higher
> percentage of a feature such as light hair or light eyes, but, 
(within
> Europe) the same light eyes and hair will also be found outside of 
and
> far away from the "German/ic" language areas. Thus, no set of
> objective standards could ever be chosen to define such a thing as a
> "Germanic" phenotype since it would never be totally representative 
of
> all the people living in Germanic speaking areas and if one were to
> devise one that would describe every one in the Germanic speaking 
area
> it would also be able to describe Italians and Greeks and 
Sardinians.

Dirk:
Yes, that is why in aniquity and the early middle ages, we should 
best adhere to a purely linguistic idendification, which is common 
practice anyway. 

> Thus a description of a Germanic speaking population has to 
adequately
> cover all the variation found in German speaking areas and that 
would
> (as we have seen in National Geographic) necessarily have to include
> brunets, a range in complexions, dark eyes etc. That is why it is
> silly to insist on "idealized characteristics" or "ethnic purity" or
> insist that Germanic-speaking people can be identified through 
certain
> typology using craniometrical methods (91). 

Dirk:
That is, I think, not entirely correct. Researchers have identified 
the so called Reihengraeber-typus, which in Germanic/Romanic border 
areas can be used to delineate Germanic from Romanic burials. This 
Reihengraebertypus is not exclusively Germanic, but it seems to be 
relatively representative of North Europeans during the period of 
interest here.  This may however, not work in all areas and it may be 
especially problematic in relation to Visigoths.

Cheers
Dirk 

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