[gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

[matthew carver]

hails!

also there i believe is the possibility of
the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
obligation. I thought these were impersonal
constructions requiring a dative. Where
does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?

-matthew

On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:

>
>>
>>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
>>
>> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
>>
>>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
>>
>> Skulum nu gaggan.
>>
>>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
>>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
>>
>> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
>> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
>> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
> neuter
>> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
>>
>> Hope this helps
>>
>> Iosef Strawarila
>
>
> As you say, this is the simplest way:
>
> skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
>
> Other possibilities:
>
> galeithan - go, depart
> usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
> afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
> afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
> andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
> atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
> faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
> house to house")
> farjan - go by boat
> etc.
>
> And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
> to go".  The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
> same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
> naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
> thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
>
> The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
> meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
>
> In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
> different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
>
> But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
> fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
> necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
>
> So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
> naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
> andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
> receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
>
> So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
> ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
> need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
> of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
> attested example.
>
> To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
> or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
> you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective).  To say "we
> have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
> or "unsis".
>
> That's my guess.
>
> Llama Nom
>
>
>
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