[gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

[ashley overs]

thanks it realy helps me.


>From: matthew carver <me at matthewcarver.com>
>Reply-To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
>To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
>Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
>
>hails!
>
>also there i believe is the possibility of
>the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
>meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
>from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
>obligation. I thought these were impersonal
>constructions requiring a dative. Where
>does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
>gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
>
>-matthew
>
>On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:
>
> >
> >>
> >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
> >>
> >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
> >>
> >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
> >>
> >> Skulum nu gaggan.
> >>
> >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
> >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
> >>
> >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
> >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do someting: sa
> >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
> > neuter
> >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
> >>
> >> Hope this helps
> >>
> >> Iosef Strawarila
> >
> >
> > As you say, this is the simplest way:
> >
> > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
> >
> > Other possibilities:
> >
> > galeithan - go, depart
> > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
> > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
> > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
> > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
> > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come down
> > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go from
> > house to house")
> > farjan - go by boat
> > etc.
> >
> > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is necessary
> > to go".  The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for the
> > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor 9,5:
> > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
> > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
> >
> > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl. thaurftai),
> > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
> >
> > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
> > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
> >
> > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
> > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is a
> > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
> >
> > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
> > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
> > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
> > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
> >
> > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu faran
> > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there is a
> > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
> > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just one
> > attested example.
> >
> > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma gaggan",
> > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on whether
> > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective).  To say "we
> > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
> > or "unsis".
> >
> > That's my guess.
> >
> > Llama Nom
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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