[gothic-l] Re: Spanish surnames

[Jorge Alexandre S G]

It was very comforting to read this superb and scientifically based posting, which clears up the other one which arrogantly belittled the Visigothic contribution to the Iberic Peninsula. It seems that many scholars nowadays are actually politically biased ,which shows in itself the great danger of science being seen as truely neutral, as I once learned when I took one year of Social Sciences ,cause its objectivity is only an ideal,its being highly influenced by many subjective and political reasons.
Congratulations mr Díaz, you are a true sage .
 Jorge Alexandre

F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth at att.net> wrote:
Hello Leonardo,
I missed seeing your post for an entire week, but I'm quite glad that
I stumbled on to it this morning.
Welcome back to the Gothic-L.
I am glad to read of your interest in the Visigoths of the Spanish
Gothia. 

>--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Leonardo Frithunanths
><frithunanths_scandza at y...> >wrote:
> 
>Hails Allum! 
> 
>After an absence of 3 years I've returned to this list, and
apparently nothing much has >changed around here, thank God. :) 
> 
>I would like to make comment on what Oscargoth once wrote.
>But regarding a possible division where one part would speak Spanish
>and another one gothic, well, I'm not very much into the 'good old'
>"Divide and conquer/rule" system, I think that we've seen too much
>of that throughout history. 
>But I'm most definitely positive to that idea of awakening the
>Spanish people into the knowledge of their glorious legacy, 

F.E.J.D writes:
Leonardo, I think the idea of offering Spaniards more exposure to
their Gothic heritage, language and culture is an interesting cause
especially since at present there is a great resurgence of interest in
those very things, however, I am convinced that what you state can
best be accomplished by allowing your interest and enthusiasm to spark
the same interest and enthusiasm in those around you. Get involved
yourself and do not count on anyone else. In addition, along with your
interest, you must also be ready to supply cogent, meaningful and
relevant content that will make the undertaking reasonable to others.
Therefore, read voraciously, learn and contrast the differing points
of view and become well rounded in as many aspects of that scholarship
as you can. 
It is quite true that knowing one's history can be an enriching and
positive life changing experience. It informs our worldview, and
allows us to imbue with value the things that we ordinarily take for
granted. It also tends to ground us in the consensus of knowledge
concerning such matters so that we are not fooled by the inadequately
informed and/or purposely misleading opinions of other individuals.

>the Visigoths, successors of the Romans and defenders of the Iberian
>Peninsula.

F.E.J.D. writes:
I am also of the opinion that the Visigoths WERE able defenders of
their people as the Clades Variana and other subsequent battles inform
us. Like you, I believe that they continued to defend their people and
homeland in Gothispania. They subdued the Vandals, Suebi, Byzantines
and turned away the advances of the Franks and other menacing
elements. Nonetheless, human frailty is always at work. Unfortunately,
the success of the Moorish invasion can be attributed to certain
Visigoth factions that conspired with certain other religious and/or
ethnic elements whom the Visigoths had oppressed under Sisebut (among
others). The latter elements allowed the passage of the Moors into
Spain while Roderick was quelling an insurrection in the Basque
highlands. By the time Roderick received the news, made retreat,
resupplied, tasked his generals and arrived to do battle, the Moors
had penetrated well into the south and were rested, rehearsed in their
tactics and ready to wage war. The ensuing death of Roderick put the
Visigoths into disarray but the Visigoths managed, to delay the
Moorish advance for some months and to keep them from taking the
territories in the northern mountains, the latter allowed the time and
space to let a great host of nobles and warriors and their families to
take refuge there.  Thereafter, they were successful in keeping the
Moors from taking those areas. Those that remained in Moorish occupied
lands did not fare as well. The latter were subjected to extremely
high taxes, curtailed freedoms, certain religious oppressions and even
a yearly territorial tribute of 100 virgins "having blue eyes and
golden hair" who were subjected to "forcible rape" in the caliph's
harems. Fortunately, the latter practice was eliminated within a short
time after a great revolt ensued. Such revolt and resistance to the
Moors was revelatory of the things to come. As regards conditions and
relations under the Moors, John Crow states, "Quite unlike the
Visigoths, the Moors were never able effectively to establish their
dominion over Catholic Spain. By the eleventh century the battle lines
between the two religions were clearly drawn, and by the thirteenth
century (only the southern parts of Iberia were yet occupied by the
Moors, [mine]) these lines had become a part of the national folk and
literary tradition. Hence, the particular and very Christian point of
view, which comes across to us from the ballads about Rodereik, a
feeble monarch who had been turned into a national legend, indicates
to us how oral tradition faithfully caught and reflected the
polarization of Spanish resistance to Islam (sic), (Crow, 1985). Here
I make two points. 1). Even after the defeat at Guadalete, resistance
to the invaders was consistently demonstrated. 2). Despite the defeat
at Guadalete (which must NOT be seen as an end to Visigothic identity)
the exiled Visigoths in the mountains of Asturias (quite aware of
their duty to defend) remained steadfast in protecting their people
and homeland. In fact, only seven years after the Moorish invasion a
horde of nobles and warriors, the great majority being Visigoths from
the previous Toledan kingdom or their direct descendants (commanded
under Pelagius - grandson of Reccesvinth), successfully expelled
Munuza, the Moorish provincial governor from the footsteps of the
northern highlands. Thereafter, the defeat of Alkama at Covadonga
sealed the beginning of the 700-year long but eventually successful
struggle of the Reconquista. Thus, the origins of the Reconquista
itself can be attributed to Pelagius, Reccesvinth's grandson who by
example in leadership and political savvy was able to lead the remnant
Visigoths and amalgamate the forces of the Vascones and Celtic people
of Galicia and Asturias against the Moorish enemy. The latter was the
only way that massive enough forces could successfully be mustered
against the enemy. It is important to note that after Covadonga and
after all Moorish forces were expelled from northern Spain the council
of Albelda (822CE) records NOT CHURCH LEADERS or some other vicarious
entity but Alfons II  (great-great-great-grandson of Visigothic King
Reccared instituting OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT - THE
WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO. What needs
to be understood here is that the singular defeat at Guadalete
(especially under its particular circumstances) cannot define and
fault a lack of resolve on the part of the Visigoths to defend person
and homeland. Rather, it is evident in the above stated events that
there was a continuation and affirmation of Visigothic identity by the
descendents of Visigoths in the royal lineage, nobility and warrior
ranks while exiled in Asturias as well as a resolve to defend person
and homeland (especially against the Moorish invaders) for centuries
well after 711.

>This glorious, highly intelligent and also from a cultural/religious
>point of view, interesting people –cut-

F.E.J.D. writes:
Leonardo, I am convinced that all humans are relatively intelligent;
also, the word glorious is too subjective here and must be embraced as
a matter of opinion. Nonetheless the Visigoths must be commended for
learning to survive against great odds, their incredible journey
through almost an entire continent, their conquests; legal codes,
artistic and architectural endeavors which devised the forerunner to
Romanesque architecture and the flying buttress as well as their
relentless pursuit for liberty, their contribution to the preservation
of certain Germanic and Roman institutions through a thoughtful
synthesis of each other's ideas and most importantly, the mysterious
glue that held all of the latter and their people together through so
much hardship for so many years. --- Wow! No wonder we are still
asking questions about them


>who in modern times have most often been blemished by far too many
>people(specially from the church...). 

F.E.J.D. writes:
Leonardo, (Very Broadly) it seems (in Spain) there have been two
ideological camps as concerns the Visigoths. One camp sees them
generally as having made positive contributions; it weighs their pros
and cons in a relatively balanced way. The other - realizes their
contributions but in the end sees them as uncouth barbarian
interlopers that destroyed the primacy of Roman civilization. The
latter I attribute to certain historical biases found in the faculties
of certain universities. They tend to worship everything Roman and
chafe when dealing with Germanic contributions. They fail to see that
what the Visigoth's accomplished is part of their very loins.
Fortunately it is a minority view. Nonetheless, as has been already
stated the Germanic contribution be it genetic, artistic or
intellectual is inescapable. 

>For me it seems extremely reasonable to do all this (except for the
>division of Spain) considering the following things:                
>In Spain there's today a growing awareness of their celtic heritage,
>very much expressed in e.g newly founded cultural groups and feasts.
>Euskera needs no further introduction considering the great
>importance that it already enjoys in today's Northern Spain.
>Regarding Iberian, well.. very little is known still today about this
>ancient language and apparently those who understand it, even a
>little bit, are all scientists or amateur scientists. Arabic is
>taught in Spain at several Institutions and besides, today's spanish
>urban citizens have a close contact with them and their culture
>considering the vast amount of arabic inmigrants that live in Spain
>today. 

>Latin and the cultures that it spawned has, is and will most
>definitely always be taught at schools, universities and other
>institutions throughout Spain. 

>It therefore leaves us with the Gothic discourse. As people in Spain
>are taught in history about the Romans, La Reconquista and the
>Moors(+ the very, very little that is also taught about the Iberians,
>Basques, Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts/Celtiberians, Alans and the
>Germanic tribes). 

F.E.J.D. writes:
Leonardo, the latter is part of the bias that I just explained.

>Spanish is being taught, as well as other languages which have
>nothing much to do with the Peninsula such as English or French. Why
>can't Gothic be taught then? 


F.E.J.D. writes:
Interestingly, Leonardo, I know of someone who is in the process of
home schooling his children and he and his wife have been teaching
them Old English and Gothic. The children are incredibly bright and
have already mastered several known languages. In my own experience,
language is best learned at an early age, and as I found out while
taking the course anthropological linguistics during my baccalaureate,
it develops our "metalinguistic awareness", which further serves us in
attaining mastery over yet other languages. -- Nonetheless Leonardo,
language is only part of the whole; a comprehensive understanding of
the Goths and Visigoths as well as other relevant Germanic tribes must
encompass all aspects of those cultures. To that end I wonder if a
(less passive) forum should be created where members are more actively
led, engaged, and encouraged to publish and/or discuss good articles
and anecdotes on relevant Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic languages,
culture, history, anthropology and all other aspects of relevant
Germanic and Gothic/Visigothic scholarship. The group should also have
a web page and also accommodate people posting in other languages.
Perhaps I'll look into creating such a list myself. My only concern
would be not to negatively impact this lists member base. I do not
think it would. Also, my suggestion should not be construed as
negative criticism of the (Gothic-L). In fact, I corresponded with the
founders before they created it was the third person to join after the
owners. Thereafter, I announced this groups formation in "Oldnorsenet"
(an old defunct forum) and quite a few joined-up forming the group's
earliest member base. Rather, this list could remain just as it is,
especially with its strong expertise as concerns questions about the
Gothic language for which it is an excellent resource and with which
it is often preoccupied.

>Considering that they did establish themselves on the Peninsula, they
>ruled and influenced it forever by mixing themselves with the rest of
>the population. 

F.E.J.D. writes:
Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept unreliable
and/or sometimes  "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as the
genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
of ALL Germanic tribes) to the Spanish population. Simply by
understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups and
haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there has
been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
scholars, (including Bury), that the Visigoths numbered approximately
300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time) [3,500,000 inhabitants
(Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
(484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact close
to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in the
U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa was
confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
previous trend to 711CE  (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I have
not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the peninsula,
they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the best
estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
process of being collected from the extant populations of  (Spain,
Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
homelands. It is also being collected from bone found in known
Gothic/Visigothic necropoli confirmed during archaeological excavation
through sartorial fashion, jewelry and other relevant artifacts.
Unfortunately, this study has been and will be underway for quite
sometime since it is quite comprehensive and the collection and
amplification of ancient materials is a slow process and/or has to be
done with great care and covers such an extensive geographical area.
Similar but smaller studies have been done by Dr. Brian Sykes to
estimate the Norse Viking admixture in Britain and Iceland. Dr. Sykes,
author of the "Seven Daughters of Eve" (a fantastic read that I highly
recommend). 

[Explanation follows] (During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000
years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in
Northern Spain (a refugium). After the glacial retreat about 12,000
years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large
numbers and to the east in lesser numbers. "R1b probably arrived in
Spain from the east some 30,000 years ago among the Paleolithic or
"old stone age" peoples and is considered to be aboriginal to Europe.
They absorbed and/or replaced the handful of inhabitants living in
those areas. R1b is most concentrated in the population of the Basques
and nearby areas of Northern Spain as well as Wales and western
Ireland. It is at nearly 100% in those areas likely due to their
geographical isolation curtailing immigration. In other words, the
latter populations are among the most homogenous or (unmixed)
populations in Europe, almost exclusively comprised of the R1b
haplogroup and having almost no other haplogroup signatures in them.
Further east R1b attains a distribution of 70% in the Low-countries
and about 55% in places thought to be the contributing populations of
the Anglo-Saxon and Danish tribes and also thins-out in its
northernmost cline- Norway, where it is at 30%. The latter is current
standard knowledge in the DNA concordances of Europe and well
supported in a plethora of studies by numerous universities. "Everyone
who has the R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual
known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of
all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of
the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who
are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which
probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals)."  (Source: Dr.
David Faux). Now Leonardo – In order to contrast the genetic
Contribution that may have come by way of other groups such as the
Visigoths against the Spanish population at large, it is important to
understand the aforementioned, as well as the signatures of nearby
populations. However, the genetic neighborhood around Spain is either
very similar (in the case of western France and the British Isles
declining to the north and east, or radically different such as in the
case of the populations of Northern Africa which originate from
distinctly different patrilineages. To that end I include the
following citations and several of my own findings: 1). "It is now
understood that the Strait of Gibraltar seems to have acted as a
strong (although not complete) barrier to gene flow
" (Bosch et al.,
Am J Hum Genet, 2001) . 2). "The majority of Iberian lineages resemble
those of central and northern Europe (Richards et al. 1996). 3). "It
seems therefore that the genetic contribution by the Moorish presence
in the peninsula, ((which had been considered by some as
substantial)), (Reyment, 1983)
((has left little trace in the modern
mtDNA gene pool))." (B. C. Sykes et al. 1996). 4). "The Islamic rule
of Spain, which began in A.D. 711 and lasted almost 8 centuries, left
only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool."
(Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996;
Salas et al. 1998). In fact Leonardo, signatures from other
populations only appear as tiny fractions of the Spanish population.
For example, haplogroup U6 (A Berber signature) is only found at very
low frequencies: 5). 
"it has been found in 3 of 196 Portuguese and 2
of 96 Galicians"
 In view of the latter "MEAGER" contribution I am
always bewildered why certain individuals who's knowledge about Spain
or molecular anthropology is all but nil will go out of their way to
make it seem that Spain's genetic makeup is largely Moorish; that,
when the latter assertion (as has been shown) is scientifically
untenable. I can only think it is an ulterior motive. Rather, the
numbers of Berber lineages have several very good explanations. 1).
The presence of U6 is an extremely ancient contribution dating to
45,000YBP. This haplotype originated in western Asia and a handful of
these individuals migrated to an almost empty Iberia just before the
R1b haplogroup arrived there. Thus, many U6 signatures are echoes of
an ancient handful of individuals living in Iberia prior to the LGM
(last glacial maximum). 2). Depending on genetic distance it could
also be the signature left over from the previously stated "tribute of
Virgins" which took place in the areas where the U6 haplogroup is
found). [Explanation]: It is well known that some of the women taken
were returned to their families, either by the payment of ransom or
during the rebellion of the local Christians (who found the practice
intolerable). Some of the women had already been raped. Thus, it is
very plausible since the "U6 signature is completely absent from all
Andalusians tested and again absent in 162 other Iberians comprising
the statistical population (5). (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real
et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996; Salas et al. 1998), and yet present in
areas where the tribute took place that it is related to a genetic
contribution through the raped victims. There is yet a further
explanation. There is curious anecdotal and historical evidence as
concerns the populace in the stated area, which does not come as a
surprise to those of us that have invested considerable time studying
the Spanish populace. Here I mean the "Maragatos", or Moorish-Goths.
The latter are well attested in an old article by George Borrow
(1803-1881) a British evangelist and travel writer of that time.
(Please see the University of Adelaide Library Electronic Texts
Collection.) Borrow states, "The Maragatos are perhaps the most
singular caste to be found amongst the checquered population of Spain.
They have their own peculiar customs and dress, and never intermarry
with the Spaniards
There can be little doubt that they are a remnant
of those Goths who sided with the Moors on their invasion of Spain,
and who adopted their customs, and manner of dress, which, with the
exception of the first, are still to a considerable degree retained by
them. It is, however, evident that their blood has at no time mingled
with that of the wild children of the desert, for scarcely amongst the
hills of Norway would you find figures and faces more essentially
Gothic than those of the Maragatos. They are strong athletic men, but
loutish and heavy, and their features, though for the most part well
formed, are vacant and devoid of expression. They are slow and plain
of speech, and those eloquent and imaginative sallies so common in the
conversation of other Spaniards, seldom or never escape them; they
have, moreover, a coarse thick pronunciation, and when you hear them
speak, you almost imagine that it is some German or English peasant
attempting to express himself in the language of the Peninsula
(Borrow, 1840)" The latter is obviously only anecdotal, however,
recent findings have shed great scientific light on the Maragatos. In
the new study; Mitochondrial DNA characterization of European
isolates: the Maragatos from Spain, (Larruga JM, Diez F, Pinto et al.)
their uniqueness becomes clear. The study states; Mitochondrial DNA
analysis confirms that Maragatos from Spain are a genetically isolated
human group. Genetic distances between Maragatos and the comparison
samples are significantly different even with the Leon sample
(P<0.001), which shares the same geographic area as the Maragatos.
Although the north-African haplogroup U6 is present in them, their
attributed Berber origin is weakened, as this haplogroup is also
detected in surrounding populations with which, in addition, Maragatos
have the smaller genetic distances." The later only a vestige echo
from 45,000 years BP of the meager presence of U6 in the population
before the R1b became ubiquitous and homogenous in the peninsula. The
presence of Neolithic haplogroups (meaning haplogroups extraneous to
Iberia and ubiquitous in such places as the purported homeland of the
Goths where the R1a and I haplogroups and its haplotypes enjoy wide
distribution) in this sample suggests that their isolation culture was
not absolute until recent times." Thus the Maragatos may be an
isolated extant population perhaps the direct descendants of a faction
of Visigoths that for certain reasons remained separate from the
surrounding populace. At the moment however, it is too soon to
disclose much more or arrive at any conclusions as pertains conclusive
estimates of Visigoth genetic contribution in Iberia. The sampling
must be completed and all the markers contrasted before conclusions
are finalized.  

>They also provided to the heritage by leaving customs, sayings, words
>and other cultural traits. As mentioned, they ruled it and left
>behind them significant edifications such as churches, monuments
>etc... and even at least one town(!) such as Reccopolis.

F.E.J.D. writes:
Concerning the Goths, Lucien Musset wrote, "
their ensuing prestige
among other Germans was expressed in the epic tradition for over a
thousand years". Undoubtedly, the Goths have been an ever-present
preoccupation in the minds of some Europeans since the beginning of
modern Europe.

Lastly Leonardo, Do not let others dissuade you from learning about
your Gothic heritage. The truth is that the Visigoths are simply and
undeniably an important part of Spanish history and part of the
Spanish populace. Those that would have you think otherwise by mere
opinion are sure to be uninformed or simply ignorant of history or
have sinister ulterior motives for doing so.

Cheers,
Frithunanths.
(Fernando Elatheus Jiménez-Díaz)




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