[gothic-l] Re: Want som comments and corrections

Mon Nov 15 22:11:30 UTC 2004

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts at h...> wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> When I made this translation I didn't use the greek to translate 
> from. Instead I used, mostly, the swedish, and also a little the 
> english and an older version of the english. Why I did that is 
> because I can't understand a single word in greek, almost.

Hi there Fredrik,

I don't know that much Greek myself;)  One trick is to look in the 
Greek-Gothic appendix of Gerhard Koebler's dictionary ( 
http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html ), to see if that word 
was translated anywhere in the surviving portions of the Gothic 
Bible, and if so with what.  Another handy link which Matthew showed 
me recently is The Unbound Bible site ( http://unbound.biola.edu/ ), 
where you can search various bibles, for example to see if the Greek 
word (or anything similar) occurs in the relevant sections.  Of 
course, this takes ages--or it does for me, anyway--which is why I 
only managed a few lines!

> Just some question more about this: which version of 20:5 was the 
> better translation? Also which is less diferent from the greek?

Only one way to find out...  I've had a go at this verse, using the 
resources mentioned; here's the Greek + my version.  If you want to 
comapare, I've left your two at the bottom of this message.

http://www.tricountyi.net/~randerse/Ex20.htm

Exodus 20,5

ou proskunhseis autois oude mh latreushs autois egw gar eimi kurios 
o qeos sou qeos zhlwths apodidous amartias paterwn epi tekna ews 
triths kai tetarths geneas tois misousin me 

(My attempt):

ni inweit ins nih blot ins. ik auk im frauja guth theins, guth 
*aljanahafts, usgibands frawaurhtins attane barnam und thridjon jah 
*fidurdon aldins thaim fijandam mik.

NOTES

zhlos = aljan 'jealousy, zeal, enthusiasm'
zhloun = aljanon 'be zealous, jealous; emulate'
zeloths = Zelotes (name of a fanatical faction)

Couldn't find a native Gothic adjective from this noun, so 
imporivised using the analogy of OHG ellanhaft 'zealous, brave'. (OE 
ellenrof, ellenheard & ON eljunfroekn both = 'brave').  As you'll 
recall, the stem-vowel -a- is usually preserved but sometimes not, 
cf. akrana-laus, himina-kunds, witoda-laus, laus-handus; manag-
falths, mikil-thuhts, lausa-waurds.  So it might possibly have been 
*aljanhafts.

usgiban 'repay, requite' (cf. L19,8; 1Tim 5,4; Rm 12,17).  I think 
USGILDAN and FRAGILDAN would work equally well.

Regarding the cases to use with these verbs, I don't think it's 
entirely clear from the extant Gothic.  I've just realised that I 
made a mistake in my English-Gothic dictionary when I suggested gen. 
for the thing paid (I think I got confused by I Thess 3,9: hva auk 
awiliude magum usgildan [fraujin] guda bi izwis ana allai fahedai).  
It should be acc. like _hva_ here. Compare: Mt. 5,27 usgibis thana 
minnistan kintu.

At least we can be sure that the recipient of the repayment is 
always dative.

Where English would say "for" or "in return for", Go. has UND +dat.  
Ubil und ubilamma usgildai "pay back evil for evil" (=kakon anti 
kakou), in other words "pay evil [back to someone] in return for the 
evil [that person has done]"; augo und augin, jah tunthu und 
tunthau "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth".  But also 
_ana_ = Gk. epi, I Thess 3,9 -- see above.

The above examples translate Gk. prepositions.  I haven't been able 
to find a clear example of "repaying a wrong" where Greek uses no 
prepositions, unless maybe II Thess 1,6: usgildan þaim gaþreihandam 
izwis aggwiþa.  I'm not sure if AGGWITHA is the crime or the 
punishment; I guess both is implied.

Hmmmm, I'm going to have to look into this a bit more closely when I 
have time.

> The word gagrefts. Isn't that fem. i-stem? And maybe I lack in my 
> knowledge there, but I thought it was -ais in plural. Got to check 
> this soon, when I'll be back home :)

Yeah, fem. i-stem (you were thinking of the genitive singular)--

N -s      -eis
A         -ins
G -ais    -e
D -ai     -im

> house of bondage: is this the way the wordorder is in greek to? 
And 
> is this the way to say it in gothic? When I earlier asked about 
> compound words I thought about the english way to use genitive 
just 
> as this sample. And I thought it would be more common to use a 
> compound form in gothic, so instead of house of bondage it would 
be 
> like a bondagehouse.

Your compound seems perfectly good Gothic to me.  The Bible was 
translated very literally, but I'm sure compounds like this were 
made up all the time, especially in poetry.  There may even be 
examples in the Bible of Gr. gen. = Go. compound--I'm not sure.  I 
know there are some instances of a single Greek noun being 
translated with a genitive construction, e.g. georgos = airthis 
waurstwja 'farmer'.

Likewise, most of your translation works okay, I reckon, and most of 
the time is probably at least as good Gothic as a direct translation 
from the Greek.  I guesss doing it the hard way helps us to learn 
more precisely what range of meaning particular words have.  It also 
supplies extra clues about what words are best in each context, but 
it can also be instructive translating from any language into Gothic.

Skalt thu blotan...  Both your versions of this first sentence seem 
good.
GUTH rather than *GUTHS, I mentioned.
IST should be IM here.
MIS should be MIK.
GAWEISON 'visit' -- English has this idiom.  Is it in Swedish too?  
Probably safer to be more literal here.  (But you're right this verb 
does take genitive.)  Your other version "laying/placing the blame 
on" might work.
BI INWINDITHOM ATTANE 'in accordance with the wickedness of the 
fathers' seems good Gothic to me.
*IUTHOM. Koebler has iutha-, ?strong masc. (i.e. iuths), implied by 
the Personal Name iutharic. But Gmc. euthuz -- I don't know why 
though.  ON jóð 'child' is neuter.

Incidentally Go. blotan (like ON blóta) takes acc. for the god 
worshipped, and dat. for the means of worship.  So to worship with 
prayers: bidom blotan.  I think Norse uses dat. for whatever is 
sacrificed to the god.

> About 'laitham'. This was a word I just used temporary because I 
> didn't know the real word. And yes, I was thinking of swedish led, 
> whidch is the word used in the swedish bible.

You can't imagine how smug that makes me feel to have guessed that...

Good luck with future translations!

Llama Nom

> > > > 5. Ni skalt thu blotan jah skalkinon thaim. Unte Ik,
> > > > Frauja, Guths theins, 
> > > > ist us-dauths Guths, saei ga-weisoth missa-dethais
> > > > fadre ana barnam jah 
> > > > afaram in thridja jah fidworta laithaim, thizeei
> > > > fijand mis,
> > > > 
> > > > Alternative for Exodus 20:5
> > > > 
> > > > 5. Ni skalt thu blotan jah hneiwan faura thaim. Unte
> > > > Ik, Frauja, Guths 
> > > > theins, ist aiwiskonds Guths, jah ana-lagjith
> > > > fairina ana barnam jah iuthom 
> > > > in thridja jah fidworta laithaim, bi inwindithom
> > > > attane hatandaize mis.

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