[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Language (Romans 1-3 Reconstruction)

[llama_nom]

Sijais hails, Maþþaiu!

Impressive stuff!  Very convincing.  Did you use Koebler's Greek-
Gothic appendix?  I've not looked closely at it all, but here's some 
comments on the first two chapters.


13. ni wiljau auk = de
How about: nih þan wiljau?  The Authorised Version has "now I would 
not have you ignorant, brethren".  The Good News Bible starts a new 
papagraph.  I've found that of all the various Gothic equivalents 
to "de", this is the one that best matches English "now" when it 
serves as a call to attention,  introducing a new topic, or some 
additional detail.

14. Krekam jah barbarjam, froflam jah unfroflam, skulans im
I would have expected: barbarum, dat.pl. of barbarus (Col 3,11 – but 
<us> in italics in Streitberg, i.e. not clearly legible), by analogy 
with aggilum & apaustaulum.  There is some irregularity in the 
nominative plurals of such words (fluctuation between i- & u-stem), 
but I think the dat.pl. is always declined like the u-stems - as far 
as the admittedly sparse evidence goes.

skulans
Isn't this m.sg. skula, refering to Paul himself?

unfroþam
I think this always has –d- before a vowel.  Apart from that it seems 
good to me, but just out of curiosity, is there a precident for 
unfrodam as opposed to unfrodaim, or unweisaim/unweisam, (unweisai = 
idiootees at 1Cor 14,23), or unwitam?

15. wailamerjon
wailamerjan

16. Unte ni skama mik aiwaggeljon
aiwaggeljons – i.e. genitive with skaman, cf. L 9,26, etc.  By the 
way, have you noticed any pattern in the choice of Got. unte, auk, 
etc. to translate Gk. gar?  Do you think unte was more emphatic, or 
are they pretty much interchangeable?

17 ...swa gamelifl ist
Rather: swe, or swaswe gamelith ist (both used to translate Gk. 
kathoos gegraptai) – as you've done in Rom 2,24.
swe gameliþ (Mk 1,2; Mk 7,6; Mk 9,13)
swaswe gamelid ist (L 2,23; Rm 8,36; Rm 9,13; Rm 9,33; Rm, 10,15; Rm 
11,26; Rm 15,9; 2Cor 8,15 A&B; 2Cor 9,9)
Swa on its own seems to be used either for comparisons: 
swa...swe `as...as', or else meaning `so', `to such an extent' (duhve 
faurhtai sijuþ swa? Mk 4,40) = houtos `why do you fear so?', `why are 
you so afraid?'.  And in the combinations: Swaswe X.
swah Y  `as X, 
so to Y' (= swaswe...swa jah).

17. iþ garaihta...
Or maybe: iþ sa garaihta; sa þan garaihta?  There's possibly a few 
equally good ways of doing this.

18. in skaþiza
= en adikia.  Does this have any precident?  What is the literal 
meaning of the Greek here?  I've got a bit lost.  It seems to 
say: "who hold down the truth in harm."  But that doesn't make a lot 
of sense to me.
King James Bible "who hold the truth in unrighteousness"
Good News Bible: "whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known"
Is this a particular sense of Greek _en_?

18. disnimand = katechontoon
Not necessarily a correction!  Just curious that this word is only 
attested once – translating this very very word - 2Cor 6,10 allata 
disnimandans = panta katechontes `possessing everything'.  I wonder 
what the implications of the dis- prefix are here.  Are there 
examples of dis- matching Gk. Kata-?  The Greek word has a range of 
other meanings besides `possess', but I'm afraid my knowledge of 
Greek is pretty much limited to these sort of comparison with Gothic 
exercises as yet.  Do you know if katechoo indicates any particular 
kind of `owning', or is associated with any particular contexts?  
Does it imply `getting to own'?  As for Rm 1,18, I wonder if it might 
be safer to look for a better attested word.  It might be a bit of a 
coincidence if the Gothic word disniman shared these two rather 
different meanings with katechoo.

21. uswissjai waurþun = emataiootheesan
Eph 4,17 in uswissja hugis seinis `in the worthlessness of their 
thoughts' (uswissi, neuter ja-stem noun) = mataioteeti.  But the 
adjective seems to have been a regular a/o-stem: uswissai usmetun  = 
eestocheesan (2Tim 2,18).

27. gumeins miþ gumeinim = arsenes en aresin
gumein/qinein `male/female' are neuter a-stems, by the looks of it 
(pl. qineina, 2Tim 3,6).  So maybe: gumein miþ gumeinam?  (Or using 
the adjective from which this is presumably derived: gumeinai miþ 
gumeinaim.)

29. balawesein
balwaweisein


CHAPTER 2

3. Rahnisuh þan þata
Rahnizuh...  (cf. wileizu, L 9,54)

7. sokjandim
sokjandam

10. *talzjari
laizari
talzjand
laisari

Interesting exercise, anyway.  Good OV word order in 'forced' free 
situations - i.e. where two Gothic words are demended for one Greek 
word.  In spite of the familiar subject matter, bible reconstruction 
I guess has it's own difficulties, cos there's less room to just make 
stuff up!  What is your word order policy for the non-biblical 
translations?  Are you matching the Latin/Greek, or aiming for a more 
natural Gothic/Germanic style?

Llama Nom




--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans at y...> wrote:
> 
> Hails
> 
> With the publishing issue having been clearly discussed and I 
> assume resolved, I'd like to give some [bible] reconstructions for 
> syntactical and vocabular commentary & of course the possible 
> correction, for those of you with nothing to do but compare Greek 
> and Gothic all day. I've already checked them, but that's why 
> there's editors. :P  I figured Gutiska is silent because it's hard 
to 
> comment and correct in Gothic when you're not sure if your own 
> Gothic is up to par. If you're interested I've begun work on 
> Procopius and Tacitus too, and can publish here for c/c/s...
> 
> Thagk,
> -Matthew
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> 
> ROMANS 1
> 
> 1. Paulus skalks Iesuis Xristaus haitans apaustaulus, 
> afskaidans in aiwaggeljon Gudis
> 2. floei fauragahaihait flairh praufetuns in gameleinim weihaim,
> 3. bi sunu gawaurflanana us fraiwa Daweidis bi leika, 
> 4. garedanana sunu Gudis in mahtai bi ahmin weihiflos in 
> usstassai dauflaim, Iesu Xristu fraujan unsarana,
> 5. flairh flanei nemum anst jah apaustaulein du ufhauseinai 
> galaubeinais in allaim fliudom faur namo is;
> 6. in flaimei sijufl jah jus haitainai Iesuis Xristaus—
> 7. du allaim flaim wisandam in Rumai liubam Gudis haitanam 
> weihaim: ansts izwis jah gawairfli fram Guda attin unsaramma 
> jah fraujin Iesu Xristau.
> 8. Afl flan faurflis awiliudo Guda meinamma flairh Iesu Xristu bi 
> allans izwis, unte galaubeins izwara merjada in allamma 
> fairhwau.
> 9. Weitwofls auk ist Gufl flammei in ahmin meinamma skalkino 
> in aiwaggeljon sunaus is hwaiwa unsweibando gamund izwara 
> waurkja,
> 10. sinteino in bidom meinaim bidjands ei hwaiwa ju hwan 
> godana wig habau in wiljin Gudis qiman at izwis;
> 11. gairnja auk saihwan izwis ei hwa gibau anst izwis ahmeina 
> du tulgjan izwis,
> 12. flat' ist, miflgafllaihan in izwis, flairh flo galaubein unsara 
> misso, izwara jah meina.
> 13. Ni wiljau auk izwis unweisans, broflrjus, flatei ufta 
> fauragaleikaida qiman at izwis jah warifls was und hita, ei hwa 
> akran habau jah in izwis, swaswe jah in anflaraim fliudom.
> 14. Krekam jah barbarjam, froflam jah unfroflam, skulans im.
> 15. Swa hwa bi mik ist gairn jah izwis in Rumai wailamerjon
> 16. Unte ni skama mik aiwaggeljon, mahts auk Gudis ist du 
> ganistai allaim galaubjandam, Iudaia [faurflis] jah Kreka.
> 17. Garaihteins auk Gudis in izai andhuljada us galaubeinai in 
> galaubein, swa gamelifl ist, "Ifl garaihta us galaubeinai libaifl."
> 18. Andhuljada auk hatis Gudis af himina ana alla ungodein jah 
> all skaflis manne flaiei sunja in skafliza disnimand,
> 19. unte flata kunflo Gudis swikunfl ist in im; Gufl auk im 
> gaswikunflida,
> 20. flo auk ungasaihwanona is af anastodeinai fairhwaus, mifl 
> taujam frafljam, gaumjanda, jah aiweino mahts is jah  *gudiskei, 
> ei sijaina *unsunjodai [aiflfl. *un-faurqiflanai].
> 21. unte ufkunnandans gufl ni swaswe gufl hauhidedun aiflflau 
> awiliudodedun, ak uswissjai waurflun in mitonim seinaim jah *
> riqizidedun unwita hairtona seina.
> 22 Andhaitandans handugai wisan, dwalai waurflun,
> 23 jah inmaididedun wulflu unriurjins gudis in galeikja 
> frisahtai(s) riurjaizos manns jah fugle jah fidurfote jah 
> kriupandaize diuze.
> 24. In flizei atgaf ins Gufl in lustum hairtane ize in unhrainein 
ei 
> unsweraindau leika ize in im,
> 25. flaiei gainmaididedun sunja Gudis in liugna jah blotidedun 
> jah fullafahidedun gaskaftai faura gaskapjandin saei fliuflifls ist 
> in aiwam amen.
> 26. Dufle atgaf ins Gufl in winnons unswereins; jah auk qineins 
> ize gainmaididedun *wisteigana bruk in *unwisteigana.
> 27. Samaleiko jah gumeins afletandans *wisteigan bruk qineins 
> usbrinnodedun in lustum seinaim mifl sis misso gumeins mifl 
> gumeinim, *aiwiskon gawaurkjandans jah andalauni flatei skuld 
> was airzeins seinaizos in sis andnemun.
> 28. jah swaswe ni gakausidedun gufl haban in ufkunflja, atgaf 
> ins gufl in uskusana ahan taujan flo *ungasatido,
> 29. usfullidans allai inwindiflai, unselein, faihufrikein, 
> balawesein; fullans neifla, maurflra, haifstai, liutein, *
> ubilgahugdai; unfaurjos,
> 30. Birodjandans, gufl fijandans, ufbrikandans, hauhhairtai, 
> bihaitjai, ubil bigitjandans, fadreinam ungahwairbai
> 31. unwitai, *ungasatidai, unhunslagai, unarmaiodai
> 32. flaiei garaihtein Gudis ufkunnandans flatei flai flata swaleik 
> taujandans wairflei dauflaus sind, ni flatainei flo taujand, ak jah 
> gawiljai sind taujandam.
> 
> 
> ROMANS 2
> 
> 1. Dufle *ungasunjofls is manna hwazuh fluei stojis, auk in 
> flizaiei stojis anflarana fluk silban gawargjis; flo auk samona 
> taujis fluei stojis.
> 2. Afl flan witum flatei so wargifla Gudis ist bi sunjai ana flaim 
> flata swaleik taujandam.
> 3. Rahnisuh-flan flata, manna, fluei stojis flans flata swaleik 
> taujandans jah taujis ita flatei flu unflaflliuhis flo wargifla 
Gudis?
> 4. Aiflflau gabeins seleins is jah flulains jah laggamodei 
> frakannt unte ni waist flatei gabeins Gudis in idreiga fluk 
> attiuhifl?
> 5. Ifl bi *hardiflai fleinaize jah unidreigamma hairtin huzdjais 
flus 
> silbin flwairhein in daga flwairheins jah andhuleinais 
> garaihtaizos stauos Gudis,
> 6. saei "usgibifl hwarjammeh bi waurstwam is:"
> 7. flaim bi usflulainai waurstwis godis wulflus jah swerifla jah 
> unriurein sokjandim libain aiwinon;
> 8. ifl flaim us haifstai jah ni galaubjand sunjai fullaweisidam ifl 
> inwindiflai jah flwairhein jah hatiza
> 9. aglo jah aggwifla and alla saiwala mans gawaurkjandins ubil, 
> Iudaiaus frumist jah Krekis,
> 10. ifl wulflus jah swerifla jah gawairfli allaim gawaurkjandam 
> fliufl, Iudaiau frumist jah Kreka.
> 11. Ni auk ist wiljahalflei at Guda.
> 12. Swa auk managai swe witodalauso frawaurhtun jah 
> fraqistnand jah swa managai swe in witoda frawaurhtun flairh 
> witofl stauanda.
> 13. Ni allis flai hausjandans witofl garaihtans at Guda [sind], ak 
> flai taujandans witofl wairfland garaihtidai.
> 14. Unte flan fliudos ni witofl haband wistai flaim witodis 
taujand, 
> flai witofl ni habandans sis silbam sind witofl,
> 15. flaim izei gabairhtjand waurstw witodis gamelifl in hairtam 
> seinaim, miflweitwodjandein miflwissein seinai jah fluhtai 
> seinai mifl sis misso mitone wrohjandam aiflflau [jah] 
> sunjondam,
> 16. in daga stojifl Gufl flo analaugnjona manne bi aiwaggeljon 
> flairh Xristu Iesu.
> 17. Ifl jabai flu Iudaius namo habais jah gahweilis witoda jah 
> hwopis in Guda
> 18. jah kant wiljan jah gakiusis flo iusizona, unte laisifls is af 
> witoda,
> 19. trauands fluk silban *tugan wisan blindaim, liuhafl flaim in 
> riqiza,
> 20. *talzjari unwitaim, laizari niuklahaim, habands hiwi kunfljis 
> jah sunjos in witoda,
> 21. flu nu laisjands anflarana fluk silbin niu laiseis? flu 
> merjands ni hlifan hlifis?
> 22. flu qiflands ni horinon horinos? flu andasitands galiugam, 
> alh biraubos?
> 23. fluei in witoda hwopis, flairh missadefl witodis Gufl 
> unswerais?
> 24. Unte "namo Gudis in izwara wajamerjada in fliudom," 
> swawe gamelifl ist.
> 25. Afl flan bimait boteifl jabai witofl taujais; ifl jabai 
> missataujands witodis sijais bimait flein faurafilli waurfl.
> 26. Jabai nu faurafilli garaihteins witodis gafastai, ni rahnadau 
> faurafilli is swe bimait?
> 27. jah ni stojifl us wistai faurafilli witofl ustiuhando fluk 
flairh 
> bokos jah bimait missataujandan witodis?
> 28. Unte ni saei in *andaugjon Iudaius ist nih flatei in andaugjon 
> in leika bimait.
> 29. Ak saei in fulhsnja Iudaius jah bimait hairtons in ahmin ni 
> bokai, flizei hazeins ni us mannam ak us Guda [ist].
> 
> 
> ROMANS 3
> 
> 1. Hwa nu managizo [ist] Iudaiaus? Aiflflau hwileika bota 
> bimaitis?
> 2. Filu bi allana haidu, frumist flatei gatrauaidai wesun [*laugia] 
> Gudis.
> 3. Hwa auk? Jabai ni galaubidedun sumai nibai ungalaubeins 
> seina galaubein Gudis gatairifl?
> 4. Nis-sijai! Wairflai flan Gufl suni ifl alla mans liugnja, swaswe 
> gamelifl ist: "ei garaihts gadomifls wairflais in waurdam fleinaim 
> jah gajiukais mifl flanei flu stojaza."
> 5. Ifl jabai ungaraihteins unsara Gudis garaihtein ustaiknjai, hwa 
> qiflaima? Nibai ungaraihts Gufl izei *inbairifl [=analagjifl] 
> flwairhein? (Bi mannam qifla.)
> 6. Nis-sijai! Aifl flau hwaiwa stojifl Gufl manasefl?
> 7. Ifl jabai sunjons Gudis in meinaize liugnein usmanagnoda du 
> wulflau is, duhwe flanamais jah ik swe frawaurhta stojada?
> 8. Jah niba swaswe wajameridai sijum jah swaswe qifland 
> sumai weis qiflaina flatei: "gawaurkjaima ubil ei wairflai fliufl;" 
ize 
> wargifla garaihta ist.
> 9. Hwa auk? Sijum batizai flau eis? Ne, gafairinodedum auk 
> faura Iudaieins jah Krekans allans uf frawaurhtai sijaina.
> 10. swe gamelifl ist "nist garaihts, nih ainshun.
> 11. nist frafljands, nist sokjands Gufl,
> 12. allai uswandidedun, samana unbrukjai waurflun, nist 
> taujands selein, nist und ainana."
> 13. "Hlaiw uslukanata hals ize, tuggom seinaim taujand 
> hindarweisein, ingif nadre uf wairilom ize;"
> 14. "flizeei munfls fraqissai jah baitrein usfullifls ist."
> 
> [end]





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