[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Language (Romans 1-3 Reconstruction)
thiudans
thiudans at YAHOO.COM
Thu Oct 14 04:33:19 UTC 2004
--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell at f...>
wrote:
>
> Sijais hails, Ma<thorn><thorn>aiu!
I don't use the Greek-Gothic appendix. Sometimes I will look up
words for usage in his Gothic dictionary. Mostly I use the power
search at unbound.biola.edu, searching by West.-Hort Greek,
and for parallels1 and 2 the Ambr. A and B. Works rather well.
You can also search for inflected greek forms. I haven't had to
create many new words using this method.
> Impressive stuff! Very convincing. Did you use Koebler's
Greek-
> Gothic appendix? I've not looked closely at it all, but here's
some
> comments on the first two chapters.
>
That might work. I got my construction exactly from 1 Corinthians
10: 20: all oti a quousin [ta eqnh] daimonioiV kai ou qew
quousin ou qelw de umaV koinwnouV twn daimoniwn ginesqai
[ni ©!=atei ©!=o galiugaguda waihts sijaina,] ak ©!=atei saljand
©!=iudos, skohslam saljand, jan-ni guda. Ni wiljau auk izwis
skohslam gadailans wair©!=an.
Do you think the usage is different to call for the altered
structure? Perhaps because Rom. 1:13 occurs initially instead
of medially in the sentence?
>
> 13. ni wiljau auk = de
> How about: nih <thorn>an wiljau? The Authorised Version has
"now I would
> not have you ignorant, brethren". The Good News Bible starts
a new
> papagraph. I've found that of all the various Gothic equivalents
> to "de", this is the one that best matches English "now" when it
> serves as a call to attention, introducing a new topic, or some
> additional detail.
>
Thanks for the correction. I cite these examples of usage:
fullai... unfrodeins (Luke 6:11) full...of foolishness [anoias]
frodein (Eph. 1:8)
...frodaim... (Luke 10, 1 Cor. 10:15) [sofwn, frwnimois]
frodai (1 Cor. 4: 10) [fronimoi]
O unfrodans Galateis, (Gal. 3:1), Oh foolish Galatians! [anohtoi]
but
swa unfrothans sijuth? (Gal. 3:3) [anohtoi]
ni wairflaifl unfrodai (Eph. 5: 17) ye not become foolish [afrones]
I don't know if that answers the question. The weak ending vs.
the strong ending is the your question. I guess it depends on
whether it should be translated as a noun or adjective.
Also, "unweisans" occurs in Rom. 11:25.
> unfro<thorn>am
> I think this always has –d- before a vowel. Apart from that it
seems
> good to me, but just out of curiosity, is there a precident for
> unfrodam as opposed to unfrodaim, or unweisaim/unweisam,
(unweisai =
> idiootees at 1Cor 14,23), or unwitam?
Haven't examined this too closely. Usually I try to do contextual
searches, looking among the translations for more similar
meaning, or use multiple words as phrase to translate the
whole. for instance, with oun. I suppose a simple search on
unbound could be revealing. For instance, now I see that there
are 220 instances of (space)auk(space) and 216 instances of
(space)unte(space) in Gothic Ambr. A. In the same manuscript,
without spaces on the search criteria, we get 301 (i.e. +85)
instances of unte as the separate particle, not occuring as part
of another word; the same search with auk gains finds 230 (i.e.
+14) this is because of unte's use as a sentence initial. It would
be nice if someone had a program that could analyze for the
basic common difference between unte and auk for translating
gar. In many cases, auk actually seems to draw more attention,
whereas unte is most often a simple logical continuant. looking
in Koebler GW I see that except in two cases, auk always is
postposited ("ausser Joh 9,30 und Sk 6,27"). Koebler has for its
greek equivalents "ga'r, ga'r (= uh auk), de', de`, kai' (=auk jah),
kai', kai` ga'r (=jah auk), me'n." On the other hand, he of course
draws our attention to the fact that unte is a conj. both temp. &
caus. "until", "while", "since", "on account of". Its Greek
equivalents are akhris ou, gar, kai gar, dioti, ews, epei, epeidh,
epeidhper (=unte raihtis), ews otou, ews ou, ef oson, kathoti,
mekhri, oti. Latin for both is usually "enim". Also, raihtis
translates sometimes gar, sometimes 'men', as does allis
(which also has meaning of Gk. olws, Lat. omnino).
> 16. Unte ni skama mik aiwaggeljon
> aiwaggeljons – i.e. genitive with skaman, cf. L 9,26, etc. By the
> way, have you noticed any pattern in the choice of Got. unte,
auk,
> etc. to translate Gk. gar? Do you think unte was more
emphatic, or
> are they pretty much interchangeable?
yes, thanks, usually i translate this swaswe.
> 17 ...swa gamelifl ist
> Rather: swe, or swaswe gamelith ist (both used to translate
Gk.
> kathoos gegraptai) – as you've done in Rom 2,24.
> swe gameli<thorn> (Mk 1,2; Mk 7,6; Mk 9,13)
> swaswe gamelid ist (L 2,23; Rm 8,36; Rm 9,13; Rm 9,33; Rm,
10,15; Rm
> 11,26; Rm 15,9; 2Cor 8,15 A&B; 2Cor 9,9)
> Swa on its own seems to be used either for comparisons:
> swa...swe `as...as', or else meaning `so', `to such an extent'
(duhve
> faurhtai siju<thorn> swa? Mk 4,40) = houtos `why do you fear
so?', `why are
> you so afraid?'. And in the combinations: Swaswe X.
swah Y
`as X,
> so to Y' (= swaswe...swa jah).
Perhaps this should be "in" + "inwindithai" or the less common
"selein". I don't remember how I arrived at this confusion. Adikia
seems almost always to be translated by inwinditha.
> 18. in ska<thorn>iza
> = en adikia. Does this have any precident? What is the literal
> meaning of the Greek here? I've got a bit lost. It seems to
> say: "who hold down the truth in harm." But that doesn't make
a lot
> of sense to me.
> King James Bible "who hold the truth in unrighteousness"
> Good News Bible: "whose evil ways prevent the truth from
being known"
> Is this a particular sense of Greek _en_?
>
Good point. For katechw I find:
1) to hold back, detain, retain
1a) from going away
1b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
1b1) that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance
1b2) to check a ship's headway i.e. to hold or head the ship
1c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
2) to get possession of, take
2b) to possess
Dis- was borrowed it seems from Latin. No cognates in Gmc.
languages. It usually translates Gk. dia-, and Koebler puts it with
MHG zer-, auseinander-, ver-. You think the sense here is more
'aihan' or 'haban' ?
> 18. disnimand = katechontoon
> Not necessarily a correction! Just curious that this word is only
> attested once – translating this very very word - 2Cor 6,10
allata
> disnimandans = panta katechontes `possessing everything'. I
wonder
> what the implications of the dis- prefix are here. Are there
> examples of dis- matching Gk. Kata-? The Greek word has a
range of
> other meanings besides `possess', but I'm afraid my
knowledge of
> Greek is pretty much limited to these sort of comparison with
Gothic
> exercises as yet. Do you know if katechoo indicates any
particular
> kind of `owning', or is associated with any particular contexts?
> Does it imply `getting to own'? As for Rm 1,18, I wonder if it
might
> be safer to look for a better attested word. It might be a bit of a
> coincidence if the Gothic word disniman shared these two
rather
> different meanings with katechoo.
Thanks for the corrections. Great help.
I have followed the Latin pretty close, except where Gothic
requires a change, mostly because I don't feel clear about
"Gmc." syntax enough yet, also as a sort of excuse to put less
effort into it (after all, Wulifila did the same practically right?) ;)
cheers,
Matthew
> Interesting exercise, anyway. Good OV word order in 'forced'
free
> situations - i.e. where two Gothic words are demended for one
Greek
> word. In spite of the familiar subject matter, bible
reconstruction
> I guess has it's own difficulties, cos there's less room to just
make
> stuff up! What is your word order policy for the non-biblical
> translations? Are you matching the Latin/Greek, or aiming for
a more
> natural Gothic/Germanic style?
>
> Llama Nom
>
>
>
>
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "thiudans" <thiudans at y...>
wrote:
> >
> > Hails
> >
> > With the publishing issue having been clearly discussed and
I
> > assume resolved, I'd like to give some [bible]
reconstructions for
> > syntactical and vocabular commentary & of course the
possible
> > correction, for those of you with nothing to do but compare
Greek
> > and Gothic all day. I've already checked them, but that's why
> > there's editors. :P I figured Gutiska is silent because it's
hard
> to
> > comment and correct in Gothic when you're not sure if your
own
> > Gothic is up to par. If you're interested I've begun work on
> > Procopius and Tacitus too, and can publish here for c/c/s...
> >
> > Thagk,
> > -Matthew
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> >
> > ROMANS 1
> >
> > 1. Paulus skalks Iesuis Xristaus haitans apaustaulus,
> > afskaidans in aiwaggeljon Gudis
> > 2. floei fauragahaihait flairh praufetuns in gameleinim
weihaim,
> > 3. bi sunu gawaurflanana us fraiwa Daweidis bi leika,
> > 4. garedanana sunu Gudis in mahtai bi ahmin weihiflos in
> > usstassai dauflaim, Iesu Xristu fraujan unsarana,
> > 5. flairh flanei nemum anst jah apaustaulein du ufhauseinai
> > galaubeinais in allaim fliudom faur namo is;
> > 6. in flaimei sijufl jah jus haitainai Iesuis Xristaus—
> > 7. du allaim flaim wisandam in Rumai liubam Gudis
haitanam
> > weihaim: ansts izwis jah gawairfli fram Guda attin
unsaramma
> > jah fraujin Iesu Xristau.
> > 8. Afl flan faurflis awiliudo Guda meinamma flairh Iesu Xristu
bi
> > allans izwis, unte galaubeins izwara merjada in allamma
> > fairhwau.
> > 9. Weitwofls auk ist Gufl flammei in ahmin meinamma
skalkino
> > in aiwaggeljon sunaus is hwaiwa unsweibando gamund
izwara
> > waurkja,
> > 10. sinteino in bidom meinaim bidjands ei hwaiwa ju hwan
> > godana wig habau in wiljin Gudis qiman at izwis;
> > 11. gairnja auk saihwan izwis ei hwa gibau anst izwis
ahmeina
> > du tulgjan izwis,
> > 12. flat' ist, miflgafllaihan in izwis, flairh flo galaubein unsara
> > misso, izwara jah meina.
> > 13. Ni wiljau auk izwis unweisans, broflrjus, flatei ufta
> > fauragaleikaida qiman at izwis jah warifls was und hita, ei
hwa
> > akran habau jah in izwis, swaswe jah in anflaraim fliudom.
> > 14. Krekam jah barbarjam, froflam jah unfroflam, skulans im.
> > 15. Swa hwa bi mik ist gairn jah izwis in Rumai wailamerjon
> > 16. Unte ni skama mik aiwaggeljon, mahts auk Gudis ist du
> > ganistai allaim galaubjandam, Iudaia [faurflis] jah Kreka.
> > 17. Garaihteins auk Gudis in izai andhuljada us galaubeinai
in
> > galaubein, swa gamelifl ist, "Ifl garaihta us galaubeinai
libaifl."
> > 18. Andhuljada auk hatis Gudis af himina ana alla ungodein
jah
> > all skaflis manne flaiei sunja in skafliza disnimand,
> > 19. unte flata kunflo Gudis swikunfl ist in im; Gufl auk im
> > gaswikunflida,
> > 20. flo auk ungasaihwanona is af anastodeinai fairhwaus,
mifl
> > taujam frafljam, gaumjanda, jah aiweino mahts is jah *
gudiskei,
> > ei sijaina *unsunjodai [aiflfl. *un-faurqiflanai].
> > 21. unte ufkunnandans gufl ni swaswe gufl hauhidedun
aiflflau
> > awiliudodedun, ak uswissjai waurflun in mitonim seinaim
jah *
> > riqizidedun unwita hairtona seina.
> > 22 Andhaitandans handugai wisan, dwalai waurflun,
> > 23 jah inmaididedun wulflu unriurjins gudis in galeikja
> > frisahtai(s) riurjaizos manns jah fugle jah fidurfote jah
> > kriupandaize diuze.
> > 24. In flizei atgaf ins Gufl in lustum hairtane ize in unhrainein
> ei
> > unsweraindau leika ize in im,
> > 25. flaiei gainmaididedun sunja Gudis in liugna jah
blotidedun
> > jah fullafahidedun gaskaftai faura gaskapjandin saei fliuflifls
ist
> > in aiwam amen.
> > 26. Dufle atgaf ins Gufl in winnons unswereins; jah auk
qineins
> > ize gainmaididedun *wisteigana bruk in *unwisteigana.
> > 27. Samaleiko jah gumeins afletandans *wisteigan bruk
qineins
> > usbrinnodedun in lustum seinaim mifl sis misso gumeins
mifl
> > gumeinim, *aiwiskon gawaurkjandans jah andalauni flatei
skuld
> > was airzeins seinaizos in sis andnemun.
> > 28. jah swaswe ni gakausidedun gufl haban in ufkunflja,
atgaf
> > ins gufl in uskusana ahan taujan flo *ungasatido,
> > 29. usfullidans allai inwindiflai, unselein, faihufrikein,
> > balawesein; fullans neifla, maurflra, haifstai, liutein, *
> > ubilgahugdai; unfaurjos,
> > 30. Birodjandans, gufl fijandans, ufbrikandans, hauhhairtai,
> > bihaitjai, ubil bigitjandans, fadreinam ungahwairbai
> > 31. unwitai, *ungasatidai, unhunslagai, unarmaiodai
> > 32. flaiei garaihtein Gudis ufkunnandans flatei flai flata
swaleik
> > taujandans wairflei dauflaus sind, ni flatainei flo taujand, ak
jah
> > gawiljai sind taujandam.
> >
> >
> > ROMANS 2
> >
> > 1. Dufle *ungasunjofls is manna hwazuh fluei stojis, auk in
> > flizaiei stojis anflarana fluk silban gawargjis; flo auk samona
> > taujis fluei stojis.
> > 2. Afl flan witum flatei so wargifla Gudis ist bi sunjai ana
flaim
> > flata swaleik taujandam.
> > 3. Rahnisuh-flan flata, manna, fluei stojis flans flata swaleik
> > taujandans jah taujis ita flatei flu unflaflliuhis flo wargifla
> Gudis?
> > 4. Aiflflau gabeins seleins is jah flulains jah laggamodei
> > frakannt unte ni waist flatei gabeins Gudis in idreiga fluk
> > attiuhifl?
> > 5. Ifl bi *hardiflai fleinaize jah unidreigamma hairtin huzdjais
> flus
> > silbin flwairhein in daga flwairheins jah andhuleinais
> > garaihtaizos stauos Gudis,
> > 6. saei "usgibifl hwarjammeh bi waurstwam is:"
> > 7. flaim bi usflulainai waurstwis godis wulflus jah swerifla
jah
> > unriurein sokjandim libain aiwinon;
> > 8. ifl flaim us haifstai jah ni galaubjand sunjai fullaweisidam
ifl
> > inwindiflai jah flwairhein jah hatiza
> > 9. aglo jah aggwifla and alla saiwala mans gawaurkjandins
ubil,
> > Iudaiaus frumist jah Krekis,
> > 10. ifl wulflus jah swerifla jah gawairfli allaim
gawaurkjandam
> > fliufl, Iudaiau frumist jah Kreka.
> > 11. Ni auk ist wiljahalflei at Guda.
> > 12. Swa auk managai swe witodalauso frawaurhtun jah
> > fraqistnand jah swa managai swe in witoda frawaurhtun
flairh
> > witofl stauanda.
> > 13. Ni allis flai hausjandans witofl garaihtans at Guda [sind],
ak
> > flai taujandans witofl wairfland garaihtidai.
> > 14. Unte flan fliudos ni witofl haband wistai flaim witodis
> taujand,
> > flai witofl ni habandans sis silbam sind witofl,
> > 15. flaim izei gabairhtjand waurstw witodis gamelifl in
hairtam
> > seinaim, miflweitwodjandein miflwissein seinai jah fluhtai
> > seinai mifl sis misso mitone wrohjandam aiflflau [jah]
> > sunjondam,
> > 16. in daga stojifl Gufl flo analaugnjona manne bi
aiwaggeljon
> > flairh Xristu Iesu.
> > 17. Ifl jabai flu Iudaius namo habais jah gahweilis witoda jah
> > hwopis in Guda
> > 18. jah kant wiljan jah gakiusis flo iusizona, unte laisifls is af
> > witoda,
> > 19. trauands fluk silban *tugan wisan blindaim, liuhafl flaim
in
> > riqiza,
> > 20. *talzjari unwitaim, laizari niuklahaim, habands hiwi
kunfljis
> > jah sunjos in witoda,
> > 21. flu nu laisjands anflarana fluk silbin niu laiseis? flu
> > merjands ni hlifan hlifis?
> > 22. flu qiflands ni horinon horinos? flu andasitands
galiugam,
> > alh biraubos?
> > 23. fluei in witoda hwopis, flairh missadefl witodis Gufl
> > unswerais?
> > 24. Unte "namo Gudis in izwara wajamerjada in fliudom,"
> > swawe gamelifl ist.
> > 25. Afl flan bimait boteifl jabai witofl taujais; ifl jabai
> > missataujands witodis sijais bimait flein faurafilli waurfl.
> > 26. Jabai nu faurafilli garaihteins witodis gafastai, ni
rahnadau
> > faurafilli is swe bimait?
> > 27. jah ni stojifl us wistai faurafilli witofl ustiuhando fluk
> flairh
> > bokos jah bimait missataujandan witodis?
> > 28. Unte ni saei in *andaugjon Iudaius ist nih flatei in
andaugjon
> > in leika bimait.
> > 29. Ak saei in fulhsnja Iudaius jah bimait hairtons in ahmin
ni
> > bokai, flizei hazeins ni us mannam ak us Guda [ist].
> >
> >
> > ROMANS 3
> >
> > 1. Hwa nu managizo [ist] Iudaiaus? Aiflflau hwileika bota
> > bimaitis?
> > 2. Filu bi allana haidu, frumist flatei gatrauaidai wesun [*
laugia]
> > Gudis.
> > 3. Hwa auk? Jabai ni galaubidedun sumai nibai
ungalaubeins
> > seina galaubein Gudis gatairifl?
> > 4. Nis-sijai! Wairflai flan Gufl suni ifl alla mans liugnja,
swaswe
> > gamelifl ist: "ei garaihts gadomifls wairflais in waurdam
fleinaim
> > jah gajiukais mifl flanei flu stojaza."
> > 5. Ifl jabai ungaraihteins unsara Gudis garaihtein ustaiknjai,
hwa
> > qiflaima? Nibai ungaraihts Gufl izei *inbairifl [=analagjifl]
> > flwairhein? (Bi mannam qifla.)
> > 6. Nis-sijai! Aifl flau hwaiwa stojifl Gufl manasefl?
> > 7. Ifl jabai sunjons Gudis in meinaize liugnein
usmanagnoda du
> > wulflau is, duhwe flanamais jah ik swe frawaurhta stojada?
> > 8. Jah niba swaswe wajameridai sijum jah swaswe qifland
> > sumai weis qiflaina flatei: "gawaurkjaima ubil ei wairflai
fliufl;"
> ize
> > wargifla garaihta ist.
> > 9. Hwa auk? Sijum batizai flau eis? Ne, gafairinodedum auk
> > faura Iudaieins jah Krekans allans uf frawaurhtai sijaina.
> > 10. swe gamelifl ist "nist garaihts, nih ainshun.
> > 11. nist frafljands, nist sokjands Gufl,
> > 12. allai uswandidedun, samana unbrukjai waurflun, nist
> > taujands selein, nist und ainana."
> > 13. "Hlaiw uslukanata hals ize, tuggom seinaim taujand
> > hindarweisein, ingif nadre uf wairilom ize;"
> > 14. "flizeei munfls fraqissai jah baitrein usfullifls ist."
> >
> > [end]
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