[gothic-l] Re: what is the real objection against the Scandiavian origin of the Goths?

[macmaster at RISEUP.NET]

Hi all,
In my understanding, the objection to a prehistoric Scandinavian origin
for the Goths is simply that it is unverifiable.  The archaeological
remains from the Vistula and elsewhere are probably Gothic but, being that
of a preliterate people, are impossible to verify as being from the
speakers of any language.
Also, it's important not to have too much faith in what Jordanes writes
regarding Gothic origins: while he uses what are probably real sixth
century traditions regarding Gothic origins, he does place the migration
out of Scandinavia impossibly early (several centuries before the Trojan
War!!!) and identifies the Goths with practically every pre-Hunnic steppe
people (most of whom were Iranic rather than Germanic).
At best, all that can be said for certain about the early Goths is that
they probably came from Scandinavia, etc; before the third century,
everything is hypothetical.
So, there is no "real problem" with it beyond the fact that it cannot
advance from hypothesis to fact.

Tom MacMaster

Ingemar Nordgren said:
>
>
>  Hi Vendelkraka and Tore!
>
>  I agree with Tore and his  reccomendation of literature is good. Still
>  I must point  out that I have just such a theory that Vendelkraka asks
>  for. It is the main object with my  book 'The Well Spring of the
>  Goths'  that is available as both paperback and e-book on most net
>  book stores.
>
>  Best
>  Ingemar
>
>
>  --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm  wrote:
>  > Hi,
>  > I don't think there is any real objections against the Baltic area with
>  > Gotland in the centre having been very influential in the forming of
>  > the Goths.
>  > It is only that some scholars can't accept this. The Polish
>  > archaeologists who have excavated the Gothic areas in the last 30 years
>  > fully accept it.
>  >
>  > However, the problem is more complicated than most people think. The
>  > contacts during the millennia before zero between Gotland and some
>  > costal areas on the Swedish Baltic coast are extensive.
>  >
>  > Suggested reading Kaliffs book "Gothic connections"
>  > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm
>  >
>  > Tore
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > On Mar 23, 2005, at 9:56 PM, vendelkrka wrote:
>  >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  I have read a lot about the pros and cons about the Scandinavian
>  > >  origin of the Goths, and I simply don't understand why some scholars
>  > >  are so categorically against it.
>  > >
>  > >  The way I see it, Poland is either the urheimat of the Germanic
>  > >  languages, or the Gothic language arrived to the Vistula basin from
>  > >  somewhere else. If we look at toponymics the names Götaland and
>  > >  Gotland are already suggesting where to look for the origin. If we
>  > >  combine with Jordanes account, it becomes even more convincing.
>  > >  Moreover, the Gothic language had a great deal in common with North
>  > >  Germanic and especially with Gutnish.
>  > >
>  > >  Now, I'd be perfectly happy if there was a just as convincing theory
>  > >  about a north German origin, but AFAIK, there is none.
>  > >
>  > >  My impression is that the archaelogical objections are carefully
>  > >  limited to the time period after 100 BC, ignoring the period 600 BC-
>  > >  300 BC when the climate of Scandinavia deteriorated.
>  > >
>  > >  So what is the REAL problem with the Scandinavian origin?
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>   You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank
> email to .
>
>
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.








------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease?
Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rkgkPB/UOnJAA/Zx0JAA/wWMplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/