[gothic-l] Intelligibility (was Gothic, Yiddish and High German

[macmaster at RISEUP.NET]

I would assume something like the last: between the end of the first
Greutungian state in 370 and Busbecq's day, there certainly were many
other Germanic speaking peoples in the region (Gepids and Heruli, to
Varangians and Transylvanian Saxons) so surely there were some influences.

Speaking of intelligibility, does anyone have an idea of how easy it would
have been for a monoglot Visigoth in c.500 to understand a monoglot Frank,
Saxon, or Vandal?
Also, would the Wulfilan Bible have been readily understood by
contemporary non-Goths (again, Vandals, Burgundians, Lombards, Franks,
Saxons, etc)?

Or were the differences between the Germanic dialects already a barrier to
ready communication?

Tom MacMaster
Francisc Czobor said:
>     Hi, Tom!
>
>  There is evidence, both historical and linguistic, that the Crimean
>  Goths are indeed descendants of Eastern (or "Greutungian")
> Goths.
>  The historical evidence is better known by other members of this List.
>  I will speak a little about the linguistic evidence.
>  All that we know about the Crimean Gothic language is from the word
>  list collected by Busbecq in the 16th century.
>
>  In that list, there are words that are clearly East Germanic, and not
>  German, for instance:
>  salt "salt": Goth. salt, but Germ. Salz
>  mine "moon": Goth. mena, but Germ. Mond
>  brunna "well, fountain": Goth. brunna, but Germ. Brunnen
>  schlipen "sleep": Goth. slepan, but Germ. schlafen
>  ada "egg": Goth. *addja-, but Germ. Ei
>  baar "child": Goth. barn, but Germ. Kind
>  menus "flesh, meat": Goth. mimz, but Germ. Fleisch
>  mycha "sword": Goth. mekeis, but Old Sax. maki
>  ies "he": Goth. is, but. Germ. er
>  tua "two": Goth. twa (neuter), but Germ. zwei
>  tria "three": Goth. thrija (neuter), but Germ. drei
>  fyder "four": Goth. fidwor, but Germ. vier
>
>  On the other hand, there are words that look rather German than
>  Gothic:
>  reghen "rain": Germ. Regen, but Goth. rign
>  bruder "brother": Germ. Bruder, but Goth. brothar
>  schuuester "sister": Germ. Schwester, but Goth. swistar
>  alt "old": Germ. alt, but Goth. altheis
>  thurn "door": Germ. Tür, but Goth. daur
>  tag "day": Germ. Tag, but Goth. dags
>  kommen "come": Germ. kommen, but Goth. qiman [pronounced:
> kwiman]
>  singhen "sing": Germ. singen, but Goth. siggwan [pronounced:
> singwan]
>  lachen "laugh": Germ. lachen, but Goth. hlahjan
>  geen "go": Germ. gehen, but Goth. gaggan
>  ich "I": Germ. ich, but Goth. ik
>
>  In conclusion, Crimean Gothic has a clearly East Germanic origin,
>  being with high probability the descendant of an old Gothic dialect.
>
>  For the words looking rather German than Gothic, there are three
>  explanations:
>
>  1. The Crimean Gothic of the Busbecq's list, being from the 16th
>  century, can be considered a "modern" Germanic language, that
>  underwent phonetic changes parallel to those observed in the other
>  modern Germanic languages, compared with the 4th century's Wulfilan
>  Gothic. Thus rign, brothar, siggwan could become reghen, bruder,
>  singhen, without any German influence. Also the form "ich" for
> "I",
>  similar to German, could be explained through internal changes in
>  Crimean Gothic: the shift k>ch is observed also in a pure Gothic
>  word: mekeis>mycha.
>  But there are words that are indeed suspiciously German-looking, like
>  alt, tag, kommen, lachen, geen. For these cases, the two other
>  explanations are applicable:
>
>  2. Busbecq, being a speaker of Dutch (Flemish) and German, was
>  tempted to give a more German form to words that sounded familiar to
>  him: it is possible that where his Crimean informers said something
>  like [dag] or [kwemen], he wrote down "tag",
> "kommen".
>
>  3. It is also possible that the 16th century's Crimean Goths were
>  mixed with later German immigrants, and the language recorded by
>  Busbecq was a sort of "mixed language", Gothic and German. This
> would
>  explain also why German merchants shipwrecked in Crimea in the 14th-
>  15th centuries could make themselves understood in German with local
>  people.
>
>  Francisc
>
>
>  --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, macmaster at r... wrote:
>  > Is there any possibility - from a linguistic perspective - that the
>  > Crimean Goths might not be the descendants of Greutungian Goths but
>  might,
>  > instead, be later Germanic immigrants to the region who adopted the
>  name
>  > of the people who had preceded them in the same region?
>  >
>  > Tom MacMaster
>  >
>
>
>
>
>
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