Reflexives continued + Position of possessive pronouns

[llama_nom]

Hello all,

and especially Gerry who asked these questions last year which I 
think I can now answer!


--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor at a... wrote:

> 
> Another thing about pronouns. In paragraph 263 of Wright it is 
stated that 
> "sein" and its derivatives are used only when they refer to the 
subject of the 
> sentence they are in. But consider Matt 8:22,
> 
>     let þans dauþans gafilhan seinans dauþans.
>     leave the dead to bury their dead.
> 
> The subject of this sentence is the implicit "þu" of the 
imperative "let", 
> and so here the rule is broken.



I've been looking at reflexives recently.  When I get my notes into 
a reasnable shape I'll post what I've got so far, hopefully soon.  
I've come across some really curious stuff, even stranger than 
this!  What's going on here, I think, is just another example of the 
ambiguity you pointed out last year with present participles.  I 
think what we have here is two clauses, a main clause and a 
subordinate one:

[MC let [SubC the dead bury their dead] ]

The first "deads" to be mentioned are thus the accusative subject of 
their own (embedded) clause, and so have every right to a 
reflexive!  Compare these examples of accusative and infinitive from 
Old Icelandic, in both of which the reflexive refers to the 
accusative subject of the embedded clause:

(3) lítr hann einn hræðiligan jötun liggja í sinni rekkju `he sees a 
terrible giant lying in its (=the giant's) bed' (Sörla saga sterka 
3).

(4) ok báðu hann reyna afl sitt `and bade him try his strength' 
(Gylfaginning 33).

However, just as with the present participles in your examples [ 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/8225 ], there is a 
potential for ambiguity here, in that a reflexive in an embedded 
nonfinite clause can also refer to the subject of the main clause, 
e.g.

(2) jah dugunnun bidjan ina galeiþan hindar markos seinos = KAI 
ERCANTO PARAKALEIN AUTON APELQEIN APO TWN ´ORIWN AUTWN `and they 
began to ask him (non-refl.) to depart beyond their (refl.) borders' 
(Mk 5,17).

More and weirder to follow...



> The placement of "seinans" is also unusual. 
> Perhaps both features are something to do with the original Greek, 
which has the 
> reflexive possessive heautón instead of the more usual autón (the 
accent on the 
> o, if it has transmitted right, is meant to show that the vowel is 
long, 
> being omega), and places it before its noun, as in the Gothic. 
Perhaps the 
> construction was emphatic. Again, it would be useful to have the 
help of someone 
> competent in Greek.
> 
> Gerry T.


The possessive pronouns--meins, þeins, *seins, ugkar, igqar, unsar, 
izwar--normally follow their noun where there is no Greek model: 
wato mis ana fotuns meinans ni gaft = `UDWR MOI EPI PODAS OUK 
EDWKAS `you didn't give me water on my feet' (L 7,44, and see also 
Mt 6,17; L 2,28; L 19,35-36; R 11,14; 2Tim 3,4).  Sometimes Gothic 
places the possessive after the noun even in contrast to the Greek, 
as at L 6,40; L 9,51; J15,10; Mt 7,24-26.  Likewise with the 
genitive of the personal pronoun, when it stands in for the missing 
nominative of *seins, e.g. in friaþwai is = AUTOU EN TH AGAPH `in 
his love' (J 15,10).  The reverse order marks a contrast: wepna 
unsaris drauhtinassaus ´OPLA THS STRATEIAS ´HMWN `the weapons of 
*our* warfare' (2Cor 10,4), i.e. spiritual ones as opposed to the 
literal weapons of warriors; iþ þai þeinai siponjos ´OI DE SOI `but 
*your* disciples' (L 5,33), unlike John's disciples and those of the 
Pharisees; ni ibna nih galeiks unsarai garaihtein, ak silba 
garaihtei wisands `neither equal nor similar to *our* justice, but 
himself being justice' (Sk 1,2).  Often also preposed for emphasis 
in agreement with the Greek: seinaim lustum = TAS IDIAS 
EPIQUMIAS `their own desires' (2Tim 4,3); meinai handau TH EMH 
XEIRI `with my own hand' (Phm 1,19); let þans dauþans gafilhan 
seinans nawins = AFES TOUS NEKROUS QAYAI TOUS ´EAUTWN NEKROUS `let 
the dead bury their (own) dead' (L 9,56); seinana sunu = TON ´EAUTOU 
´UION `his own son'(R 8,3); and so on: R 10,3; 1Cor 15,23; 1Tim 
3,5.  A deceptive example: sein ain = TA ´EAUTHS `its own [lit. its-
own only]' (1Cor 13,5)--unless 'ain' here is really aigin??

Llama Nom






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