Reflexives continued + Position of possessive pronouns

[Budelberger, Richard]

24 nivôse an CCXIV (le 13 janvier 2006 d. c.-d. c. g.), 23h07.

---- Message d'origine ----
De : llama_nom <600cell at oe.eclipse.co.uk>
À : Gothic-L
Envoyé : vendredi 13 janvier 2006 14:02
Objet : [gothic-l] Reflexives continued + Position of possessive pronouns

> Hello all,
>
> and especially Gerry who asked these questions last year which I
> think I can now answer!

    Attention,  llama_nom ! La police « EGreek » fait correspondre
« ksi » à « x » et « khi » à « c » (/cf/. /infra/).

----
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor at a... wrote:
>
>> Another thing about pronouns. In paragraph 263 of Wright
>> it is stated that "sein" and its derivatives are used only when
>> they refer to the subject of the sentence they are in. But consider
>> Matt 8:22,
>>
>>     let þans dauþans gafilhan seinans dauþans.
>>     leave the dead to bury their dead.
>>
>> The subject of this sentence is the implicit "þu" of the imperative "let",
>> and so here the rule is broken.

    En grec, non :

        AFES TOUS NEKROUS QAYAI TOUS ´EAUTWN NEKROUS

    « TOUS NEKROUS QAYAI TOUS ´EAUTWN NEKROUS »,
proposition infinitive ; le sujet du verbe à l'infinitif « QAYAI » est
à l'accusatif, ¹« TOUS NEKROUS » ; le verbe « QAYAI » a un
complément à l'accusatif, ²« TOUS NEKROUS », dont le
« possesseur » est le sujet du verbe, ¹« TOUS NEKROUS » :
le pronom est réfléchi : « ´EAUTWN ».
    Le gothique suit strictement le grec : « þans dauþans »,
sujet à l'accusatif = ¹« TOUS NEKROUS » ; « gafilhan »,
verbe à l'infinitif = « QAYAI » ; « dauþans », complément
du verbe « QAYAI » à l'accusatif = ²« TOUS NEKROUS ».;
le possesseur étant le sujet de la proposition infinitive --
« the subject of its own sentence » --, le pronom est réfléchi :
« seinans ».

> I've been looking at reflexives recently.  When I get my notes into
> a reasnable shape I'll post what I've got so far, hopefully soon.
> I've come across some really curious stuff, even stranger than
> this!  What's going on here, I think, is just another example of the
> ambiguity you pointed out last year with present participles.  I
> think what we have here is two clauses, a main clause and a
> subordinate one:
>
> [MC let [SubC the dead bury their dead] ]
>
> The first "deads" to be mentioned are thus the accusative subject of
> their own (embedded) clause, and so have every right to a reflexive!

    Oui.

> Compare these examples of accusative and infinitive from
> Old Icelandic, in both of which the reflexive refers to the
> accusative subject of the embedded clause:
>
> (3) lítr hann einn hræðiligan jötun liggja í sinni rekkju `he sees a
> terrible giant lying in its (=the giant's) bed' (Sörla saga sterka
> 3).
>
> (4) ok báðu hann reyna afl sitt `and bade him try his strength'
> (Gylfaginning 33).
>
> However, just as with the present participles in your examples [
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/8225 ], there is a
> potential for ambiguity here, in that a reflexive in an embedded
> nonfinite clause can also refer to the subject of the main clause,
> e.g.
>
> (2) jah dugunnun bidjan ina galeiþan hindar markos seinos = KAI
> ERCANTO

    « ERXANTO » !

> PARAKALEIN AUTON APELQEIN APO TWN ´ORIWN AUTWN `
> and they began to ask him (non-refl.) to depart beyond their (refl.)

    Non. « AUTWN » = « their (non refl.) ».

> borders' (Mk 5,17).

    La proposition infinitive « AUTON APELQEIN APO TWN ´ORIWN AUTWN »
est le complément d'objet de la proposition principale, « PARAKALEIN » :
« AUTON », sujet à l'accusatif ; « APELQEIN », verbe à l'infinitif ;
« APO TWN ´ORIWN », complément du verbe ; le possesseur,
« les gens », le sujet de « HLQON », « ERCONTAI », ..., « ERXANTO »,
n'est pas « AUTON » (/i. e/. Jésus), le pronom N'est PAS réfléchi, en grec.

    Je ne comprends pas pourquoi le gothique a le réfléchi « seinos » !..
Wright ne commente pas en note. Pourquoi pas « ize » ?

> More and weirder to follow...
>
>
>
>> The placement of "seinans" is also unusual.
>> Perhaps both features are something to do with the original Greek,
>> which has the reflexive possessive heautón instead of the more usual
>> autón (the accent on the o, if it has transmitted right, is meant to show
>> that the vowel is long, being omega), and places it before its noun, as
>> in the Gothic. Perhaps the construction was emphatic.

    Non, c'est la syntaxe normale du pronom possessif réfléchi : au génitif,
« ´EAUT-WN », et enclavé entre l'article « TOUS » et le nom « NEKROUS ».
Le gothique copie ici le grec (mais omet l'article, démonstratif trop fort).

>> Again, it would  be useful to have the help of someone competent in Greek.
>>
>> Gerry T.
>
>
> The possessive pronouns--meins, þeins, *seins, ugkar, igqar, unsar,
> izwar--normally follow their noun where there is no Greek model:

    Quand le sens est clair, le grec omet le possessif.

> wato mis ana fotuns meinans ni gaft = `UDWR MOI EPI PODAS OUK
> EDWKAS `you didn't give me water on my feet' (L 7,44, and see also
> Mt 6,17; L 2,28; L 19,35-36; R 11,14; 2Tim 3,4).  Sometimes Gothic
> places the possessive after the noun even in contrast to the Greek,
> as at L 6,40; L 9,51; J15,10; Mt 7,24-26.  Likewise with the
> genitive of the personal pronoun, when it stands in for the missing
> nominative of *seins, e.g. in friaþwai is = AUTOU EN TH AGAPH `in
> his love' (J 15,10).

    Non reflexive : (Jesus) MENW AUTOU (Father's) EN TH AGAPH.
D'où « is ».

> The reverse order marks a contrast: wepna unsaris drauhtinassaus
> ´OPLA THS STRATEIAS ´HMWN `the weapons of *our* warfare'
> (2Cor 10,4), i.e. spiritual ones as opposed to the literal weapons
> of warriors; iþ þai þeinai siponjos ´OI DE SOI `but  *your* disciples'
> (L 5,33), unlike John's disciples and those of the Pharisees;
> ni ibna nih galeiks unsarai garaihtein, ak silba garaihtei wisands
> `neither equal nor similar to *our* justice, but himself being justice'
> (Sk 1,2).  Often also preposed for emphasis in agreement with the
> Greek:

    Je ne le pense pas. La construction article + pronom + nom est
normale en grec (/cf/. /supra/) ; le gothique calque le grec.

> seinaim lustum = TAS IDIAS EPIQUMIAS `their own desires' (2Tim 4,3);
> meinai handau TH EMH XEIRI

    « CEIRI » !

> `with my own hand' (Phm 1,19); let þans dauþans gafilhan seinans
> nawins = AFES TOUS NEKROUS QAYAI TOUS ´EAUTWN NEKROUS
> `let the dead bury their (own) dead' (L 9,56); seinana sunu = TON ´EAUTOU
> ´UION `his own son'(R 8,3); and so on: R 10,3; 1Cor 15,23; 1Tim
> 3,5.  A deceptive example: sein ain = TA ´EAUTHS `its own [lit. its-
> own only]'

    « [Lit. : « the its »] »...

> (1Cor 13,5)--unless 'ain' here is really aigin??
>
> Llama Nom





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