Haiku & Toponymics

[Fredrik]

Guenther Ramm <ualarauans at ...> wrote:
>
> 
>  
>   Hails, Frithureik!
>   
>   
> I might use this...depends on of I can make in rhyme.
> I havent seen 'liggos' before. Is that an attested word?
>   -iliggos in *thiwiliggos is an expanded form of the Pgmc. 
patronymic suffix -inga- with the meaning "person descending from 
smb./smth." and the like. You can meet it in attested 
gadiliggs "cousin" from the stem gad- (like in ME to-geth-er). 
Another (re)construction that I think would be possible here is 
*thiwairna M. -an., where -erna-n- more or less = -inga-, cf. 
widuwairna "orphan" from widuwo "widow". Feminine Gothic *thiwairno 
F. -on "thrall's daughter" can be guessed from OHG diorna etc. (s. 
Koebler) > NHG Dirne "whore". I think both *thiwiliggs and *thiwairna 
could have mostly pejorative meaning in actual Gothic (cf. the German 
semantics).
>    
>   

>    
>   
>   Yes, really Koebler has *thunds M. (I missed to consult it). But 
then in thundos haihaitum it should perhaps be Acc. thundans (if an -
a- stem)

>  

Yes...perhaps it should be acc. I have been thinking about this whole
sentence and I think it is kinda weird.
A literally translation might be 'Heroes we called' and not 'We call 
them heroes'. But maybe a poetic language doesnt have to be totaly 
logic. Anyway I might change it to accusative.
  
> >   -          thize allaize lande – perhaps allaize thize lande?
> 
> Is this more corretc, in that case I probably change it.
> 
>   Here I just thought of Spanish todos los
 and French toutes les
 
I don't know if it has any effect for Gothic. Another peculiar 
construction to say "all of
", "every" we find in Wulfilan Gothic is 
all (N. Sg.) + noun (Gen. Pl.). So it would be all lande "all 
countries". To say "of all countries" – maybe "allis lande". I'm 
quite not sure here.


The meaning of this sentence is meant to be: 'of all countries'.
Just as inte the final words of the manifesto.
So in that case maybe allis lande would be nice.

>    
>    
>   About "America". If Amerigo < *Haimareiks, then it's clear why 
not *Amalareiki. There is a German name Emmerich, is it of the same 
origin? Or maybe it's a contracted form of *Ermenrich < Gothic 
*Airminareiks (remember that old guy? :))? *Airminareiki, 
literally "a great power", perhaps would do for "America" (as seen by 
many from the outside) if we mean the U.S. and don't take into 
account the government form. Incidentally, does Gothic reiki 
inevitably implicate some concrete form of rule? Maybe we're just 
influenced by Reich, rik, rijk etc.

Well, the verb reikinon means to have power over and the word reiks 
mean ruler or prince as in most names ending in -reiks like 
Haimireiks and Frithureiks.
Reiki is authority or realm.
As you know a loan from celtic languages.

>   I'd want to discuss it not as much to contribute to neo-Gothic 
toponymics as to see how (sometimes funny) they would look if 
translated literally from the point of etymology.

My opinion is that most names should be as like as possible to the 
name that is used by it's inhabitants. But names of places in 
germanic area these could often be translated literally and still 
have a similar form.
As you said, literal translation can be funny looking. Think about 
how China would be translated to.

E.g., Germany would prove to be *Thiudiskaland "a pagan country", but 
if we use something like *Alamanne land (after the Romance 
languages), we'll get "a country of all and everybody", and if 
*Sahsane land (after Old Norse and Finnish), what will faces of those 
in Bavaria look like?

It has been discussed a little about these things.
There's a map of Europe with names in gothic.
See it at: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/got/9/99/Europe.PNG
I think some of the names might work but some need to be changed. But 
that's not up to me I guess.

I think Germany is a problem. Thiudiskaland doesn't sound that good 
and the meaning in gothic is not that good either.
Your suggestions is pretty OK but that one I like most (for now) is 
Sahsaland (rahter than Sahsane land).


>   France then – is it *Fragkaland (like Icelandic) or still 
*Fragkareiki (yet not a kingdom for more than 200 years)?

I don't know if reiki could be used in the meaning state and refer to 
all kind of states, both monarchy and republic.
I think Fragkareiki is the better choice coz it's more like german 
Frankreich and swedish Frankrike.

>   Sweden – *Swijareiki or *Swaiareiki (depends on how we imagine 
Gothic original of Jordanes' suehans), or maybe we go ON and get 
*Sweithiuda
?

A while ago I thought Sweareiki was a good form. Koebler has Sweos 
(pl) with meaning swedes to I guessed the singular would be Swes.
But now I prefer Swijareiki.
I don't the ON form is any option. the swedish name is Sverige, which 
is most similar to Swijareiki.

>   Russia – *Roth(i)sland (I guess there was an inscription in 
younger runes mentioning Rothsland, but what exactly did it refer 
to?)?

The name russian is probably a form of old swedish rother and is 
related to the name Rothin which is today Roslagen in central Sweden.
The finish name for Sweden is Ruotsi which has the same origin.
It was people (varangians/vikings) from this part of sweden that came 
to russia.
I dont know for sure but maybe Rurik was from there too.
The old swedish word rother could come from rothuz.
A gothic name could then be Rothuland or Roduland.
I still prefer smth like Russaland.


>   And what would be names of all those "younger" countries which 
(names) have no Germanic background? For example, the Ukraine 
(lit. "borderland") = *Markaland? Or maybe *Aujaland (as Gothic oium 
were located somewhere there)?
The scythian steppe was 'oium' i think. And that was in that area.
>   
>
I think names like Ukraine should be smth like that, maybe Ukraina.
Romania maybe smth like Rumonja (cf. rumoneis = romans).
And Moldova (cf. moldavia) smth like Muldawja (cf. mulda = soil, awi 
= meadow)
 
> 
> 
/Fredrik






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