Visigothic identity of Spain

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar at ...> 
wrote:
>
>  Hi Tom!
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> > Actually, the Arian creed saw Jesus as a human and a Prophet, 
born
> of the
> > Virgin Mary and ascended into heaven after the resurection rather
> than as
> > a part of the Godhead; the view of Jesus in Islam is almost 
identical
> > (some scholars think Muhammad may have been influenced by Arian-
like
> > Christians in Arabia)
> >
> > Tom MacMaster
> 
> I totally agree with you about the Arian original thinking. This 
is in
> the time of Arius and soon afterwards, but still this is the basic
> concept. The compromises in Nicea and Constantinople however 
explained
> that Christ was the first created entity and had existed before
> makind. Still he was regarded however as different from the Father.
> Since we now call him Christ and not Jesus there lies the 
implication
> that he was rather an incarnation of God  instead of actually
> resurrected/reborn and so he returns to the basic condition as 
divined
> righteous prophet. This does indeed lie close to Islam, and an 
Arian
> might quite easily convert during such circumstances as in Spain. 
The
> fact that Reccared and some leading nobles accepted Catholicism 
from
> 586 gradually and that the Catholic Toledo councils were raving 
lakeys
> of the pope in persecution of Jews, resulting in the final defeat 
in
> 711, does not mean the general population of Goths had lost their
> Arian roots even in 711. Hence it is not at all improbable that 
many
> Goths converted into Islam then.
> 
> Best
> Ingemar
>


Hi Ingemar,

you should know that already the Arian Visigoths had percecuted the
Jews and you should also know that Visigothic Spain had almost no
contact with the pope in Rome. There is a very good book on the
Visigothic church, which I have recommended to you earlier. The
author shows nicely that the contact between Rome and Toledo was so
spuradic that sometimes 10 to 20 years could pass without any letter
or any other communication exchanged betweeen the Roman and the 
Visigothic churches.

I know you like to present the Goths in general as the good guys of
history _ the righteous warriors of justice, tolerance and moral
superiority. Such a presentations moves like a red line through
everything you right about the Goths. Yet, this is just not the
right way to go about it.

The Visigoths fled to Spain after their terrible defeat by the 
Franks in 507, when many of them were killed. The remnants created a 
feeble state, that was ruled by weak and often cruel kings who 
ordered the percecution of other minorities like the Jews. Only 
under Reccared, who initiated the conversion to Catholicism did the 
state gain in stability and some power, culminating in the 
eradication of the last Byzantine bastions on Spanish soil in the 
early 7th century under Sisebut and Swinthila.

>From the mid 7th century economic crises and incompetence greately 
eroded state power. The various often very cruel Visigothic kings 
conducted regular percecutions of the Visigothic nobility in which 
many were killed, often with their entire families, or they fled to 
the Frankish kingdom. Towards the end of the century, instability 
and paranoia were once again rife in Visigothic Spain leading 
members of the royal clan to seek alliances with the Moors in 
Africa, who finally cross over to conquer a state that collapses at 
a blink of an eye.

I know Visigothophiles like to present the view that the masses of 
ethnically homogeneous Visigoths (many of whom covert Arians) fled 
to the north of Spain to organise a noble and brave resistance, 
which some 500 years later was crowned by success. Thus, these 
people try to create a sense of continuity, presenting some 200 
years of feeble but Christian Visigothic rule as more important than 
more than 500 years of islamic rule in Spain


Cheers,
Dirk






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