Visigothic identity of Spain

[macmaster at RISEUP.NET]

What evidence is there of persecution of Jews by Arian Christians?  I am
not familiar with any (and more recall the Jews of Naples fighting for an
Arian Italy, etc)

Also, my assumption is that many more "sons of Visigoths" converted to
Islam than went north and that the Spanish reconquista is far less the
'heir' of Visigothic Spain than the Khilafah in Cordoba was

Thanks,
Tom
faltin2001 wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar at ...>
> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Tom!
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> > Actually, the Arian creed saw Jesus as a human and a Prophet,
> born
>> of the
>> > Virgin Mary and ascended into heaven after the resurection rather
>> than as
>> > a part of the Godhead; the view of Jesus in Islam is almost
> identical
>> > (some scholars think Muhammad may have been influenced by Arian-
> like
>> > Christians in Arabia)
>> >
>> > Tom MacMaster
>>
>> I totally agree with you about the Arian original thinking. This
> is in
>> the time of Arius and soon afterwards, but still this is the basic
>> concept. The compromises in Nicea and Constantinople however
> explained
>> that Christ was the first created entity and had existed before
>> makind. Still he was regarded however as different from the Father.
>> Since we now call him Christ and not Jesus there lies the
> implication
>> that he was rather an incarnation of God  instead of actually
>> resurrected/reborn and so he returns to the basic condition as
> divined
>> righteous prophet. This does indeed lie close to Islam, and an
> Arian
>> might quite easily convert during such circumstances as in Spain.
> The
>> fact that Reccared and some leading nobles accepted Catholicism
> from
>> 586 gradually and that the Catholic Toledo councils were raving
> lakeys
>> of the pope in persecution of Jews, resulting in the final defeat
> in
>> 711, does not mean the general population of Goths had lost their
>> Arian roots even in 711. Hence it is not at all improbable that
> many
>> Goths converted into Islam then.
>>
>> Best
>> Ingemar
>>
>
>
> Hi Ingemar,
>
> you should know that already the Arian Visigoths had percecuted the
> Jews and you should also know that Visigothic Spain had almost no
> contact with the pope in Rome. There is a very good book on the
> Visigothic church, which I have recommended to you earlier. The
> author shows nicely that the contact between Rome and Toledo was so
> spuradic that sometimes 10 to 20 years could pass without any letter
> or any other communication exchanged betweeen the Roman and the
> Visigothic churches.
>
> I know you like to present the Goths in general as the good guys of
> history _ the righteous warriors of justice, tolerance and moral
> superiority. Such a presentations moves like a red line through
> everything you right about the Goths. Yet, this is just not the
> right way to go about it.
>
> The Visigoths fled to Spain after their terrible defeat by the
> Franks in 507, when many of them were killed. The remnants created a
> feeble state, that was ruled by weak and often cruel kings who
> ordered the percecution of other minorities like the Jews. Only
> under Reccared, who initiated the conversion to Catholicism did the
> state gain in stability and some power, culminating in the
> eradication of the last Byzantine bastions on Spanish soil in the
> early 7th century under Sisebut and Swinthila.
>
> From the mid 7th century economic crises and incompetence greately
> eroded state power. The various often very cruel Visigothic kings
> conducted regular percecutions of the Visigothic nobility in which
> many were killed, often with their entire families, or they fled to
> the Frankish kingdom. Towards the end of the century, instability
> and paranoia were once again rife in Visigothic Spain leading
> members of the royal clan to seek alliances with the Moors in
> Africa, who finally cross over to conquer a state that collapses at
> a blink of an eye.
>
> I know Visigothophiles like to present the view that the masses of
> ethnically homogeneous Visigoths (many of whom covert Arians) fled
> to the north of Spain to organise a noble and brave resistance,
> which some 500 years later was crowned by success. Thus, these
> people try to create a sense of continuity, presenting some 200
> years of feeble but Christian Visigothic rule as more important than
> more than 500 years of islamic rule in Spain
>
>
> Cheers,
> Dirk
>
>
>




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